Uni Fees

[HTH AMPS]

ok, so I'm weighing up my options as we tend to do at the start of a new year and I've been going through the costs of returning to University for further study.

Newcastle Uni are wanting £9k per year to study there.  I can't imagine how anyone can afford that, its totally unrealistic that I'd be able to repay that.  When I got my degree back in 2000 I didn't have to pay any fees, but it was tough enough going.  I really feel for new students, I can't imagine how they manage financially.

Its quite a sad state of affairs that higher education has once again become the domain of the wealthy...

... or am I missing something? (mostly likely)  :(

[Chris]

I don't think you're missing anything - it is hard for students now.  My sister is in her second year of uni at the moment and her fees are much lower than £9K, because she started a couple of years ago, but she still finds it difficult.  Student loans will cover the fees, but you would face leaving uni with quite a debt.  It doesn't get paid back until you are earning above a certain threshold, so it is manageable but I still don't think it's fair.

I still study (I'm in the middle of my third degree), but I chose to do this one through the Open University rather than a brick uni so that I can carry on working - it is cheaper, but much slower (and you have to be a lot more disciplined).  Maybe it is another option to consider though...

[tomjackson]

I think it has to be the domain of the wealthy, if anybody can afford a degree, too many people will gain them and the wealthy will have less to distinguish themselves with.  So those in power have ensured that they will again become out of reach for as many people as possible.

[Sifu Ben]

The IFS says that, assuming fees of £7,500, for about half of graduates, the plan is essentially a 9% graduate tax for 30 years, because they will not finish paying off the debt by the 30-year cut-off point.

It's a mixed bag. The starting point is £21,000, so if you have a non-vocational degree you may well never end up paying back anything, and a good number will never pay back anything like the full amount unless they fairly rapidly start earning £45K. So on one level it's more fair, but on another the daunting fact of £43,000 in debt massively discourages people from less well off backgrounds and indeed people from lower middle class backgrounds.
We also don't know what effect this is going to have in the wider scheme of things. 5 years ago there were an OBSCENE number of jobs paying £15-17K with degrees in the person spec. !!!   :roll: :gib: :orcass:
That will clearly have to change if obtaining a degree is such a huge financial commitment. Therefore it's not inconceivable that the effect will be balanced out by a 10% increase in graduate pay.

[JDC]

NHS pays mine :D

On a more serious note studying a degree should be seen as an investment, sure you pay back a big debt when you earn over the threshold but so long the increase in earnings is more than the debt paid over the long term then it is a good investment.

Basically find a degree that interests you that has good future prospects; don't do media studies.

[ToneMonkey]

My sister in law is doing distance learning with a uni and she pays by the module. Seems quite a good way of doing things.

Both my folks (and a couple of mates) have done Open University, but I'm not sure how that works out nowadays.

[nfe]

It's a disgrace folks in England, Wales and N. reland have to pay for university now. I do too, but I'm on my second degree, paying for that should be the case, because I'm doing a second qualification at a level I've already achieved and I think that's fair enough.

It should simply be much harder to get into uni (but with only qualifications and personal statement considered - I don't think unis should be aware of what school the pupil is coming from) and everyone good enough should go for free. Like it used to be.

[dave_mc]

i agree wholeheartedly with you (HTH i mean)

when i went fees were at the first level they were set at (so ~£1000 a year). My parents paid mine (my parents are awesome) but there were plenty of people whose parents should have been paying it (according to the government policy, since it was based on parents' earnings) whose parents basically told them to $%&# off.

which was messed up.

I disagree with even £1000 because of teh slippery slope principle (which turned out in hindsight to be true)- it wasn't too long until they massively raised them.

I don't know how the hell you'd pay £9k a year (yes i realise you get to pay it back later). there are living expenses too (which normally aren't much less than 4-5k a year).

I dunno what the end result is gonna be. I guess we can only hope they go way too far and then there's a massive backlash and they get made free again. But that'll completely unfairly screw over a whole generation of people in the meantime. :(

^ +1

like in ireland. completely anonymous. i realise that the argument against that is that private school pupils tend to do better, but the alternative is even worse, if you ask me (where a lot of the time they let people in *because* they've been to private schools or because they know them).

except no personal statement. apart from anything (i.e. aside from it being a pain in teh ass to do and being no use) it could affect the anonymity of it. if someone says they play polo there's a fair chance they go to a private school, etc.

and no interviews either (again, anonymity).

EDIT: also  :good: for mentioning NI as well in there. the shiteeety BBC news frequently says only english (and sometimes they mention the welsh too when they feel like it) don't have to pay fees in scotland as if teh english are hard done by. We damn well have to pay them if we go to uni in scotland too.

Actually funnily enough we get it free (or as free as it is... there are some (much lower than english) fees, just they're called something else :lol: ) if we go down south to uni.

On a more serious note studying a degree should be seen as an investment, sure you pay back a big debt when you earn over the threshold but so long the increase in earnings is more than the debt paid over the long term then it is a good investment.

how is it a good investment if it used to be (and should be) free?

[JDC]

On a more serious note studying a degree should be seen as an investment, sure you pay back a big debt when you earn over the threshold but so long the increase in earnings is more than the debt paid over the long term then it is a good investment.

how is it a good investment if it used to be (and should be) free?

If I earn an extra £100,000 more over my life time and the debt paid back was £50,000, I've made a profit.

If I earn an extra £100,000 more over my life time and paid nothing back, I've made a profit.

Granted paying nothing back is the better deal but both still return a profit. There is an emotional response to the "loss" paying the debt back even though there is no loss, just less is gained.

[Roobubba]

FWIW I have helped out in the admissions process in Oxford a bit (only a little, mind): in my experience, there was no discernible bias towards private/public school applicants. If anything, in fact, those applicants with top grades from comprehensives/state schools tended to be favoured. Only in my limited experience, mind - I can't comment on the wider picture outside of what I saw.

What is it you're thinking of studying, HTH? Is it a course that you could do part-time? My Mrs didn't go to Uni - after college she got a job then did an HNC and then MSc completely in her spare time. As I went to a private-school/Oxford Undergrad/DPhil, I have to say that the way she did it puts me to shame.
I was very lucky to have received the education I did (I think my parents felt guilty about being away all the time, my brothers and sisters all had state education (and all did very well from it)). At that age, I certainly wouldn't have had the application to work and study in my spare time, and I'm all the more biased for that, now. During various recruitment rounds that I've been involved with, I tend to favour those candidates who've worked and studied, rather than had it all handed to them on a silver platter (as arguably I did).
Which, aside from hereditary credentials, is probably why I'll never be one of the 'elite' and rich!

Roo

[nfe]

FWIW I have helped out in the admissions process in Oxford a bit (only a little, mind): in my experience, there was no discernible bias towards private/public school applicants. If anything, in fact, those applicants with top grades from comprehensives/state schools tended to be favoured. Only in my limited experience, mind - I can't comment on the wider picture outside of what I saw.

I've no idea how the internal admissions work, but this year saw (much shouted about) record highs of offers to state-school kids. Leaving "only" 41% of Oxford offers going to independent school kids. But only 7% of British kids are at independents so they're obviously massively over-represented.

[Twinfan]

They're only over represented if the results at all schools are similar.  I would hazard a guess that private school exam results are a little higher than the average inner city state school...

[nfe]

Quite obviously. But I challenge anyone to find stats that suggest the difference is of remotely that degree. And of course, it isn't:

Sutton Trust report on A-level results comparison.

45% of the independent school pupils from schools achieving average 801-850 A-level points each went on to the selective universities, compared with 26% of the comprehensive school pupils .

50% of independent school pupils from schools achieving average 851-900 A-level points per student got places at the selective universities, while only 32% of comprehensive pupils did.[/quote]


Sorry, but anyone who wants to have a bash at arguing that the selective unis, Oxbridge especially, do not take a significantly higher proportion of independent-school pupils than results would justify might as well cover their ears and shout la-la-la-la-la-la all day.

[Twinfan]

Back on topic...

HTH - Newcastle want to be seen as one of the top end Unis, hence the high fees.  Can you do the course you want somewhere else cheaper?

[nfe]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2011/may/17/university-league-table-2012

Always handy for weighing up the university compared to the fees by subject. The maximum tuition fees being in place at Newcastle seems unreasonable given their rankings.

(Just discovered with that that Glasgow is 4th, 5th and 6th in the country for the three subjects I study. Wasn't aware.)