Username: Password:

Author Topic: do i need to learn modes to play solos?  (Read 6583 times)

AndyR

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4715
  • Where's all the top end gone?
    • My Offerings
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2012, 06:40:30 PM »
WARNING: Long AndyR post ahead :lol:
Sorry folks :roll:

Even some hardcore jazzers don't bother with modes, they look at everything chordally.  They may play something that someone would call a mode but they are arriving at it from a different place with a different mindset.

This stuck out when I was reading through.

I actually look at everything chordally. I think in terms of melody lines (vocals, solos, riffs even) modifying the harmony of the underlying (or implied chord). So if the chord is a C, and I sing or play a D, the chord is now a Csus9 (or 2 if you want!). If you do the blues dunga-dunga riff with the pinky finger, you're adding a 6th with the pincky, so I think in terms (if the chord is E) of an alternating E and E6 sequence.

All of my lead playing is based on these principles. First off, what's in the chord - I can play any of those safely, but on their own you'll be hard pressed to sound interesting. So you add the groovy notes as passing notes - 4ths, 6ths, 7ths etc... plus any note you fancy trying. I also tend to pay attention what key the song is in, what the next chord is, and whether the song's key is major or minor (that's where the modes actually provide the theory to "explain" it all)- you tend not to change the key of the melody line everytime the chord changes (unless you want to, that is!), so the notes you can safely play over an A chord in the key of A are slightly different than the ones you play over A in the key of D.

To kick this off originally, I did learn what turned out to be the minor pentatonic thing - but I found it myself. When I started learning to improvise "blues" lines, I recorded a bunch of twelve bar in E. Then I experimented with all the notes in the first 3 or 4 frets to find out which ones seem to work and sound "solo-like" when played in little phrases.

I can still remember the ones I found - E, F#, G, A, Bb, B, (C), D - the C is in brackets because I liked it a lot but it seemed you had to go careful about when you used it, C# was an option too. There was no possibility of bending strings on this acoustic, so that's probably why I had Bb in the list.

Then... I got a white crayon and marked the fretboard with every occurence I could find (and reach) of these 8 notes.

I spent a couple of weeks (I was 16 or 17) fiddling around with this looking for ways to get from note to note easily, finding little phrases that sounded good to me. I ended up finding a position at the nut, using frets 1, 2 and 3 (and therefore duplicated at the 12th fret), and another at the 7th fret with different shapes. It was obvious to me you just moved these up and down the neck if the key changed. I got away with just this lot for about 5-7 years and loads of gigs :lol:

I could use more notes in the scale if it wasn't blues - I was already comfortable with major and minor scales, and the white crayon exercise had taught me where a bunch of notes were on the fretboard, so my brain soon learnt the rest.

It took me years to figure out how to be comfortable with Major pentatonic - you kind of need that for Rock and Roll tunes and Country (which was cropping up), but I just fluffed my way through it - if the song's in A, play the shapes you know for F# minor pentatonic, no-one seems to notice  the difference! :lol: (Sh1t! I just realised I still do this 20-odd years later).

Meanwhile I was writing and arranging songs - so chords and harmony were always in my mind. Somewhere I read that chords are just the notes of scales stacked on top of each other and vice versa... so that encouraged me to pick the side I understood - harmony - and do it all from there.

The modes, which I don't find that helpful myself, do actually describe all this stuff - but I find it so much easier if I can hear something I like first and then get told why it works. When I looked into the modes (I was about 19) it was all a bit dry and mathematic, I liked it for that reason, but I couldn't hear no music coming out of the theory!!

I think you're absolutely right, Andy.... but remember not everyone has ears as good as yours, so learning a few things by rote can possibly help.  Sometimes.  :wink:

Hopefully some of the waffle above shows that I did actually learn it "by rote" - it's just that I picked the notes that I wanted to learn myself :lol:

I have a real feeling that I can improvise at will partly because of this. I wanted to learn how to "talk" with melodies and chords, so I went by sounds and what felt good. Once you've learnt a few phrases and tricks of your own you start hearing the relationship to other people's phrases, you understand what it is they're doing, and you can nick theirs as well. Other guys I knew at the time were getting lessons or whatever (I don't remember modes being the "in thing" they became later, though), and to my amazement I've found that some of them still can't improvise, even though they'd like to be able to. They know far more academic music theory than I do, but if we're chugging along on a chord, they're not able to suggest what a groovy next chord might be (so we're stuck in twelve-bar land until I take over and start yelling interesting chord changes at them :lol:).

EDIT: Lezard said it all much more succinctly while I was rambling. Especially this:

I find it easier and quicker to play from the root note and add the intervals I want or play altered and extended arpeggios and any other chromatic bullshiteeeeeeeeeee that comes to mind.

And as has been said, for the orignal question, you don't really need modes to solo.
Major and minor scales, pentatonics and chord tones should be fine untill you decide you want to try something else.
and learning intervals couldn't hurt either.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 06:44:21 PM by AndyR »
Play or Download AndyR Music at http://www.alonetone.com/andyr

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2012, 06:50:46 PM »
+1 to andy and lezard.

Intervals are all there really is. Understand those and youre more or less set. karl sanders, a guitarist I hold in very high regard (Nile) was once asked what scales he uses; he rattled off a few, but added something like 'come up with a melody and make a scale from it' then use that to play around with. Its the sequence of intervals that matter, it doesnt matter what you call the sequence. If you know the intervals in a chord, you can play over it easily without knowing what scale youre using (though the chances are excellent that whatever you come up with, it already exists as some obscure scale or other).

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2012, 06:56:36 PM »
Also, andy, you $%&#ing dare stop writing long ass posts and I'm gonna find where you live and replace all your fenders with BC riches. The pointiest ones.

38thBeatle

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6098
    • http://www.myspace.com/alteregoukband
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2012, 07:07:18 PM »
I agree that it is not crucial to know modes. OK it may not be too bad a thing if you do know them and can name them but thats not going to turn you into a great player (not that I am a great player by any stretch of the imagination). I think Andy has said it very well. I take a similar approach which is these days known as the chord tone method though I didn't know that until fairly recently. Its all about, for me, thinking about the notes that appear in the chords I am playing over and finding the sweet ones. It means using those tones from the chord sequence in a way that pleases you. I am hopeless at explaining myself unfortunately.
Send three and fourpence we're going to a dance
BKP's: Apache, Country Boy, Slowhands.

XxpapertigerxX

  • Guest
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2012, 07:15:45 PM »
The best way to understand the importance of the modes and the different "flavors" they bring to your solos is to hear the differences. This video is perfect for that, I really recommend watching it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE0qLKHnflo

AndyR

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4715
  • Where's all the top end gone?
    • My Offerings
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2012, 07:18:36 PM »
:lol: @ MDV - no wurries, I don't think I'll ever manage to curtail it!

Hey! My "quote" button has just failed - a while back Dave-mc said his had stopped working and I was thinking "driver error" ... obviously not :lol:

38th - explained perfectly.

Actually, I've learnt something in this thread. Although I typed a load about it, I've only just learnt that I'm not alone in this. It was because of tomjackson's post that I started off. And now I find others think "chords".

I would (and expect you others) recommend EVERYONE investigate a bit more about chords/harmony if you don't know it already, what they sound like when you add more notes and why they work. Because 1) it seems to give you a lot of freedom, and 2) for "theory" it seems a lot more relevant and a lot less abstract than some of the other stuff does (to me, at least, anyway!)
Play or Download AndyR Music at http://www.alonetone.com/andyr

XxpapertigerxX

  • Guest
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2012, 07:34:29 PM »
I agree when it comes to learning about chords.

It's all about the relationships between the notes being played at any given moment, and learning about those relationships and the different sounds/feelings they create is one of the most important things you can do to make your guitar playing truly musical.

MrBump

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 3405
  • Essex! Home of the Brave!!!
    • This Is Essex
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2012, 08:16:20 PM »
What Andy said.

Understanding modes is fine.  Playing them is fine, good exercise for the fingers.

But understanding the structure of the song is way more important.

I like artificial modes or scales - diminished or augmented.  It's a great device to be able to play a relatively melodic bluesy solo, then put a quick diminished descending run in the middle of it.
BKPs Past and Present - Nailbombs, Mules, Blackguard Flat 50's, VHII's & Trilogy Suite with Neck & Bridge Baseplates!

Lezard

  • Featherweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2012, 08:22:45 PM »

I like artificial modes or scales - diminished or augmented.  It's a great device to be able to play a relatively melodic bluesy solo, then put a quick diminished descending run in the middle of it.

true dat! I love using symmetrical scales to change between pentatonic positions.
It wasn't a mistake, it was chromaticism, I swear.

dave_mc

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 9796
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2012, 08:36:03 PM »
Hey! My "quote" button has just failed - a while back Dave-mc said his had stopped working and I was thinking "driver error" ... obviously not :lol:

haha

but yeah it happens on me all the time. then 30 seconds later (or the next time i log in) it's working fine. :?

HTH AMPS

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5649
    • HTH AMPS
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2012, 08:49:13 PM »
you could learn to play modes, or sit and watch this hot lass shred, the choice is yours...  http://youtu.be/Vkj4bU8lozc

and she likes The Stooges too, omg!!!  http://youtu.be/B5keHbjN2Gc   :lol:

enuenu

  • Junior Flyweight
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2012, 05:45:04 AM »
Hard to explain (especially when I barely know what I'm talking about), but:
If the song's in the key of C you may think you're improvising in D Dorian, but you're not.... you're really playing C Ionian (aka C Major).  Because you're in C.
The actual notes may be the same, but it's all about how they relate to the underlying key.  
(So if you wanted to improvise in Dorian, it should be C Dorian, not D Dorian)
Does that make sense?  Apologies if it doesn't.
That's probably the best explanation I have heard to date. Thanks a lot.

Also thanks to all the other contributors with their detailed posts. I will examine them closely. It was the fundamental meaning of modes that always eluded me.

_tom_

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 8842
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2012, 06:03:33 AM »
You could do what I did.  Learn the pentatonic/blues scale in all 5 positions, then try adding 'extra' notes in songs and see if they fit.  That's basically adding the notes from the modes but without the theory  ;)  Works for me so I can get by

I do this as well. Always think about learning the modes but to be honest I don't care enough to give it a go :lol:

Matt77

  • Guest
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2012, 10:20:17 AM »
Lydian is fun to learn..... go on you know you want to.
Turn up the gain, palm mute a C major chord on the A string and then from time to time play the 7th fret on the B string with your little finger. Instant rip off of flying in a blue dream by satch.
God I'm bored

jpfamps

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 767
    • http://www.jpfamps.com
Re: do i need to learn modes to play solos?
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2012, 08:46:00 PM »
Very interesting thread.

My conclusions from speaking to many musicians is that modes seem to be an obsession unique to guitar players.

One of the bands I play with have a horn section, all really good players (much better than me at soloing of jazz changes), really into jazz, and have studied music at college.

Chatting with them, they seem to fine any discussion of modes very strange indeed, and not really relevant to how they approach playing through changes.

In reality, there isn't that much Western music (Flamenco being the major exception) that is genuinely modal.

If you play notes from the D dorian scale over a Dm you aren't playing modally unless Dm is the key centre AND the harmony of the rest of the piece is derived from the D Dorian scale.

My approach, such that it is, seems to be similar to many on this thread, and is based more on chord tones and "extra" notes rather than looking at scales.