Micromaphones!

[MDV]

I just got my finger out to start to record. But I cant get a decent sound.

My guitars have BKs or swinsheads in, and my amps are engl and marshal tsl, and I get great tones. But I cant capture them. Or anything like them.

Now, being a n00b at this all I've tried is mic infront of amp into soundcard, using adobe audition (because I know how to: there be dragons in cubase, I havent learned it yet).

I get staticky high and and honky mids out of a sound that has a rich/smooth mid and saturated, wet highs.

The mics I've tried are a cheap 10 quid thing from maplins and a Shure PG48 (also cheap, and vocal, I know, and I prefer the sound of the cr@p one!!!).

My soundcard is some generic 10 quid C-media.

What do you folks think is my weakest link here? Should I be shelling out 100ish for a mic, or a soundcard first (both eventually, sure, but one thing at a time!). What mic? What soundcard?

Is there another way you could reccomend?

[maxingwell]

One thing that may help is a mic pre-amp before going inot your soundcard but to get any real improvement you'd prob need a slightly better mic too (SM57/58 or better?). IMO I'd do this first before upgrading the sound card (start from the source then work you way along the chain).

What sort of volume are youplaying your amp at when recording? If its bedroom level (quiet-ish) you might struggle to get a big sound. Have you tried using a duvet/clothes rack type thing to put over your amp to tighten up the sound (and get more volume)?

[Muttley]

Where to start?  :)

First off, you're not gonna be able to capture your sound very well with a £10 microphone, so that's likely the first weak point in your chain.

As you probably know Shure SM57s are kinda the industry standard for recording guitars, but the Audix i5 seems good too (definitely want to get one of these next).  Andy Sneap (ex-Sabbat guitarist, and metal producer extraordinare) did a few decent mic/speaker combination demos over at his forum that are quite interesting to hear: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213350

The next stage of the chain is of course the mic pre's.  I'm guessing you're just going straight into the soundcard here?  With a decent mic you'll also need a decent pre to boost the level.  I'm currently use the pre's on my Soundcraft M8 mixer, which is not ideal (it's a bit bulky), but works well.

Your soundcard will also probably be a weak link due to it's ADDA convertors.  Budget PC sound cards really aren't ideal (or even designed) for recording purposes.  I'd recommend looking into upgrading this if you want to start recording at home properly.  It's especially important to get something that has very low latency when monitoring through it, otherwise you'll never be able to play in time with what you recored, and will have to shunt audio tracks by several millisecs all the time (been there, done that, never want to go back ;))

As to makes of soundcard.  I really like the M-Audio cards, which are extremely good quality for the price.  I use a Delta 1010 myself, but they also do cheaper USB or FireWire interfaces.  FireWire is preferable IMHO, even if you have to buy a FireWire card too, as it has more bandwidth and is more efficient than USB.  I think they also do cards with a mic pre built in, so you could kill 2 birds with one stone.  :)

Software wise, I'm a big fan of Cakewalk SONAR (using version 5 Producer here), but that's quite expensive.  I tried Cubase a few years ago and really didn't like it much.

What kind of spec is your PC BTW?

HTH

Muttley

[MDV]

Thanks for the replies! Very helpfull!

My PC is an AMD 3000, 1 gig of ram, blah blah blah.

The amp is LOUD. You could gig a pub with it. I very much see what you're saying there, maxingwell, because I still have to ampify the signal in audition anyway (I roughly double the volume after recording).

There is a mic boost option on the soundcard: I tried that and it was far too much. Is a mic pre adjustable?

I think I'll try the mic boost, loud amp and mic it further away later, see if that does better.

I have a copy of cakewalk dimension, Muttley. Any good?

I think I'll start with the mic, and look into M-audio cards with mic pre built in.

Thanks again for the advice! Very helpfull.

Any more you (or anyone else) can throw in? Handy hints for a bedroom sound engineer? :lol:

[Muttley]

Thanks for the replies! Very helpfull!

No problem.  :)

My PC is an AMD 3000, 1 gig of ram, blah blah blah.

That should be more than enough to get started

The amp is LOUD. You could gig a pub with it. I very much see what you're saying there, maxingwell, because I still have to ampify the signal in audition anyway (I roughly double the volume after recording).

There is a mic boost option on the soundcard: I tried that and it was far too much. Is a mic pre adjustable?

I think I'll try the mic boost, loud amp and mic it further away later, see if that does better.

OK, that'll be some of the problem.  If you were doubling the volume after recording, you will also have been doubling any nasty noise and hum that you don't really want.  A general rule of thumb with recording is to record with your levels as hot as possible without clipping.  In very simple terms clipping is where the signal is too loud to fit into the bit-depth you're recording in.  So the sound gets chopped off at the top level and this introduces nasty distortion (not the nice kind we guitarists usually like ;)).

Try the mic boost, but instead of moving the mic away from the speaker, lower the mic volume in the recording settings in th eWindows volume control.  You may need to go to the advanced view or select the recording section as it defaults to playback.

I have a copy of cakewalk dimension, Muttley. Any good?

I think Cakewalk Dimension is a software synthesizer thingy, so that won't do you any good for recording guitar

I think I'll start with the mic, and look into M-audio cards with mic pre built in.

I've just had a look at the M-audio site, and it seems that some of them come bundled with a cut down version of Ableton Live, which may help you get started while you investigate and save for more fully feaured DAW software.

Thanks again for the advice! Very helpfull.

Any more you (or anyone else) can throw in? Handy hints for a bedroom sound engineer? :lol:

Read.  Lots.  :lol:

Welcome to a great fun, but potentially very expensive hobby.  :)

Muttley

[dave_mc]

this is going to sound incredibly basic compared to the other guys (recording software? soundrecorder is all i mess with!), and i'm sure you've tried it, but have you tried moving the mic? That can make a major difference.

I'm just saying this because, I've recorded some things with a similar setup to you ( £10 pc mic, straight in), and, while it won't compare to those shure mic recordings etc.,  I don't think my recordings sound as bad as you're describing yours- a few people have complimented me on my tone, so i must be doing something right... probably just luck, to be honest, in that i just got the mic positioned right, or something... I thnk i recorded mine with the mic about 4 or 5 feet away fromt the cab- i know most guys mic it directly at the cab, but this added a nice ambience to my tone...

Vocal mics tend to increase the treble in your tone as well, you could try turning that down a bit on your amp too...

That's all the suggestions I have, to try and use what you already have to its full potential...

[MDV]

Hmmm....I had a copy of sonar 1.0 kicking round ages ago....never used it, obviously! I'll see if I can find it.

I'll definately aim to get the level near max on the raw recording to begin with (and why the hell didnt I think of that *kicks self* the mic vol is there on the same panel as the boost *kicks self again*).

Dave: thanks for chipping in!

I did try different locations round the speaker and angles of the mic with respect to it, with some success, but nothing satisfactory. I settled on slightly angled and near the edge.

I also mucked about with amp settings, EQ pedal and compressor to try and couter the rubbish un-qualities in the sound. Again, some things had a good effect, some not. Nothing drastic or satisfactory.

And in all fairness, dave, I dont think it sounds THAT bad. Its not so much the actual sound itself, its more that it doesnt sound like my actual tone, and my slating of the recorded sound is because of the difference between the two. Its not catching it.

Why, after typing that do I get the feeling thats what its ALL about, and you can spend years and thousands getting good at it? Damn, its been a while since I was such a n00b!

It needs sorting, because I want to record some music, and I have these amazing tones that I'm just annoying the neighbours with :lol: I want my music to sound as good as I can reasonably make it......is that so much to ask  :(  :lol:  

Looks like lots of learning how to use whatever I have/get, and a fair bit of making with the scratch for the 'get' part. Okey dokey.

Thanks for the help fellas!

[SDE]

Hi Mark,

Just a thought, you mention in your original post having a Marshall TSL, have you tried the XLR speaker emulated line out direct into your line in on the soundcard.  I have tried this with mine as I have a TSL602 and the sound is certainly useable, at least until you get the miking up sorted - the best bet is to eq the amp for what you are hearing through the PC speakers rather than from the amps speaker or cabinet.
I used an XLR plug and an adaptor to take the 1/4in down to 3mm then into a stereo cable with 3mm plugs on each end - all from Maplin.

Regards


Simon.

[dave_mc]

^^mark: when i tried to record my avt, i remember thinking "that doesn't sound like my amp!" whereas my savage se sounds more like it- not exact at all, and nowhere near as good as those pro solutions to recording, but i can definitely tell it was me playing through my amp- i understand your frustration. I don't really know how to make it sound more like what you're hearing as you play...

I guess i just got lucky...

[Muttley]

As a point of reference to what's acheivable with a reasonably small amount of recording gear, here's something I did shortly after John Peel died as a bit of a tribute: Teenage Kicks (John Peel Tribute)

That has 4 rhythm tracks recorded from my Marshall JMP1/9100/1960a setup.  Shure SM57 on axis pointing at the dead centre of one of the speaker cones (almost touching the cloth).  SM57 into the Soundcraft Spirit M8 mixer, and that direct out into one of the inputs on the M-Audio Delta66 I had then (I've upgraded to the 1010 since).  I was using Cakewalk SONAR 4 at this time.

I used 2 tracks from my SG, and 2 from my JEM and panned them left and right different degrees.  Plus of course, another lead track with the JEM.

This was programmed (drums and bass were cheapy Soundfonts) and recorded/mixed in one day, so it's not totally perfect, and please excuse the vocals.  ;)

Muttley

[Muttley]

It needs sorting, because I want to record some music, and I have these amazing tones that I'm just annoying the neighbours with :lol: I want my music to sound as good as I can reasonably make it......is that so much to ask  :(  :lol:  

Yeah, you might as well annoy everyone, otherwise you're just picking on the neighbours.  That's my philosophy anyway.  ;)

Looks like lots of learning how to use whatever I have/get, and a fair bit of making with the scratch for the 'get' part. Okey dokey.

Thanks for the help fellas!

Feel free to ask questions.  I'm no expert, but I've been fiddling with this for a while and am starting to get good results (finally).

Muttley

[big steve]

this might be a little more simplistic than the other advice in this thread, but here we go anyway. i know nothing about soundcards, so i won't even try to share advice for that. what i would look for would be a shure sm57. typical cliche answer yeah, but they are built like tanks, versatile and, afaik, can cope with pretty high levels of sound pressure. you can pick up a used for for about 50 quid i would imagine, and these things are pretty much impossible to damage. also, i'm guessing that with a setup like that, you're gigging, and the sm57 willl serve you well for that, too.

[indysmith]

can yu plug an SM57 into a soundcard? what kinda connector does it have? (i'm no mic expert!)

[Muttley]

can yu plug an SM57 into a soundcard? what kinda connector does it have? (i'm no mic expert!)

Only if it has a Mic preamp really.  You can get an XLR to Jack cable or converter, but unless the soundcard has some kind of preamp in it the level will be way too low to be useful.

Muttley

[indysmith]

ooo i see thanks