Replacement PU's for 1989 Gibson 335

[Grahams Cat]

I've recently acquired a 1989 335. I've found the pick ups to be particulary high in gain, lacking depth with a brittle timbre. These were designed by Bill Lawrence and feature a PCB back plate (rather odd). The tone only cleans up when the volume is at 40% or so and is like playing with a drive pedal when full. This is a tad frustrating as I'm playing through a 5w class A amp with limited clean headroom, so really need clean volume.
I'm looking for a clean mellow tone for blues, jazz and alike, but also something that will work well with an overdrive pedal on occasion. All suggestions are welcome. I've read that some people combine different PU's but also note that matched sets are available. Is there an advantage? Thanks G

[BigB]

I'm looking for a clean mellow tone for blues, jazz and alike

Looks like you want the Stormy Mondays...

but also something that will work well with an overdrive pedal on occasion.

... or perhaps Mules or Manhattans or Mississipi Queens (the last two are HB-sized P90s). Or a mix of any of these pups...

All suggestions are welcome. I've read that some people combine different PU's but also note that matched sets are available. Is there an advantage? Thanks G

BKPs "matched sets" usually have a different winding (and sometimes much more differences than just the winding) for neck and bridge, taylored to, well, match each other wrt/ voicing and output level. IOW, neck and bridge are two somewhat different pups designed to work well together each in it's own position.  Now you can also get good results (or not) with mixing different models neck and bridge, but you'll probably end up with a less "consistent" set. Wether this is a problem or not depends mostly on your tastes, but better to AskTim(tm) before you place your order, he does know its pups pretty well and his advices are more often than not spot on.

Oh, and welcome BTW.

[Telerocker]

I'd say Mules. Full, round, a lot of depth, articulate, but crispy enough not to get dull. I just came back from a rehearsel with a projectband doing some blues(rock) like John Lee Hooker, Sas Jordan, Beth Hart etc. and they are great for clean mellow blues (I use a booster to push) and with a drive or od, the bridge can do classic rock in spades.

[bandmaster188]

i put a mule in the bridge and a stormy in the neck on my 335 and i love it. some folks don't recommend mixing alnico II and IV pickups but it works for me. the middle position has almost got a gretsch like quality to it. but that said my ears are always ringing these days so i might not be the best judge!
i had those pcb pickups in my LP custom and they have a reputation for going wrong. just tested them at 13.6k for the bridge and 7.4k for the neck. i replaced them with wcr filmores.
i don't think you'd go far wrong with a set of stormy's though from the style you're describing.

[AndyR]

I've recently replaced the Classic 57s in my 335 with Mules that I had in another guitar.

I use it for blues, blues-rock, 70s rock, country, 60s/70s pop. I like mine "just-breaking up" at around 6 on the guitar volume, and I don't usually go for completely clean on a humbucker guitar. But since the swap, I am finding that I'm using this guitar in situations where I'd usually reach for a Fender. For me, it's starting to drag me into "clean mellow tone" territory...

I think you wouldn't go wrong with Mules, but I have a feeling that Stormies might be better suited for you? I've not tried them though, I nearly did, but I was already replacing Alnico II and I wondered whether the Stormies would have enough "chewiness" to them in comparison to the Mules which I was already familiar with. I'll probably never know now (or not in this guitar anyway), because it turns out that the Mules are it as far as this guitar and I are concerned! :lol:

btw, my Mules are unpotted - I've read on here somewhere that unpotted Mules are great for semis. Not sure why that might be, but it definitely works for me :D

[BigB]

btw, my Mules are unpotted - I've read on here somewhere that unpotted Mules are great for semis. Not sure why that might be, but it definitely works for me :D

@OP: beware, unpotted pups in a semi might be _a bit_ prone to feedback at stage level...

[PhilKing]

@OP: beware, unpotted pups in a semi might be _a bit_ prone to feedback at stage level...

Bare Knuckles unpotted pickups are very feedback resistant.  I have a pair of unpotted Stormy Monday's in my 335 and they sound great and can be overdriven to give great harmonic feedback.

[AndyR]

btw, my Mules are unpotted - I've read on here somewhere that unpotted Mules are great for semis. Not sure why that might be, but it definitely works for me :D

@OP: beware, unpotted pups in a semi might be _a bit_ prone to feedback at stage level...

It'll sound good though!! :lol:

I don't get up to stage volumes regularly anymore, but I never really had much problem with pickup squeal. Partly, I imagine, because I use late-70s amounts of gain. The semi itself will be prone to feedback at a decent volume anyway, but that's just the nature of the beast and you get used to controlling/using it.

But yes, if you're going to use much gain - I'd get them potted. Didn't sound to me like Graham's Cat will though - sounds like he might be using even less gain than I am!

I'm trying to remember who advocated unpotted mules in a 335 (I've even got a feeling I've read that's what Tim uses - but don't quote me, I could be very wrong about that).

EDIT: Aah! Phil, I nearly mentioned you - but something didn't sound right about it, so its unpotted Stormies in your case then :D

- Maybe that's what I can remember...

[Grahams Cat]

Thanks everyone for such an informative response.
I've listen to most of the audio snippets of the PU's suggested and got rather excited about the Stormies and Manhatten P90's (oohhh!)
I owned a 1968 SG a while back with soapbars, they were very nice. I'm not looking forward to installing them, having replaced electrics an epi dot a while back, it's a bit fiddly. I'd def go unpotted as I mostly play in the studio nowadays.
Has anyone installed the dedicated CTS pots? I haven't delved into the dot yet. I've heard Gibson have used non-standard pots (less than 500k) on some guitars and understand this effects the tone.
 

[BigB]

Has anyone installed the dedicated CTS pots? I haven't delved into the dot yet. I've heard Gibson have used non-standard pots (less than 500k) on some guitars and understand this effects the tone. 

Gibson used 300K pots on a lot of guitars (don't know if they still do but that's what came in my '80 SG), and yes, this definitly affect the tone - "sucks the highs" or "put a blanket" would be a better description.  Given the tones and playing style you're after, I highly recommand switching to PIO caps and "gibson 50s" wiring while you're at it.

[Philly Q]

Given the tones and playing style you're after, I highly recommand switching to PIO caps and "gibson 50s" wiring while you're at it.

That's another thing about 335s, isn't it?  Not only is it a pig to change pickups*, but experimenting with different pots and caps will be a nightmare if you don't like the results.


(* Going by what I've read!  I'm not brave enough to attempt it myself...)

[AndyR]

I was pleasantly surprised when I did the pickup change the other week. Yes, it is slightly more involved than other guitars, but not nearly as bad as I was expecting. I had done a similar job years ago on a Westone Rainbow, and my vague memories of that were making me put off doing this job... But it went OK when I decided to do it. Just make sure you're particularly organised for this type of guitar, all the bits etc that you want are ready, so you don't have to go searching or improvising too much in the middle of it... and make sure you have set aside a good bit of time - it will go better than you remember. I set aside all of a Saturday from 7.30 am or so (I didn't get up early, that's just when I'm up and thinking about my hobby on Saturdays, if allowed :lol:!). I took it very leisurely, including a long break for coffee, buns, and a natter - and I was finished and playing it by 11.30 or so.

I did replace the caps at the same time, mainly because my Mules were already paired with some Vitamin Q PIOs in the other guitar, and I do like what they do together.

I think I'd go with BigB on a definite PIO caps recommendation. Not so sure on the 50s wiring myself, though. When I tried it a few years ago in a couple of guitars I was a bit disappointed. I was expecting an extra sprinkling of "vintage magic"... I could hear some difference, I think, but not enough to say it was noticably better for me either way... but the big thing was that volumes and tones interract a lot differently than I'm used to - and I use/rely on them a lot, so that was a big downer as far as I was concerned. I changed both guitars back within days/hours. So, unless you already know you like 50s wiring, I would not recommend trying it for the first time in a 335!! :lol:

I didn't bother with replacing the pots. The ones in mine are already CTS and they weren't upsetting me. They seem to react like "500" rather than the 300s I found in another Gibson - so I didn't even bother looking at them closely when they were out. I'm now realising, reading this, I might have been quite lucky - I wouldn't have found out I needed to change the pots as well until it was all back in and restrung! :lol: As it is, I'm extremely happy with the results so, unless something falls off inside, I'm not expecting to perform surgery again for quite a while...

[Grahams Cat]

Hummm, Yes I installed a set of Bill Lawrence blade PU's in my strat back in te days of Yor. They certainly depended on a bespoke 'induction filter'. I had fun rewiring my Epiphone Dot a while back, replacing pots and spliting the PU's. It's not a job to hurry. I made a template for mounting the pots to ensure they were distanced correctly and dropped the old ones after attaching kite string to drag em back through.
I was surprised to find how expensive the caps are. I'd imagine CTS pots are consistant though. I may fit push/pull or sprung pots to split the coils again. There's a thought !!!

[BigB]

I think I'd go with BigB on a definite PIO caps recommendation. Not so sure on the 50s wiring myself, though. (...) but the big thing was that volumes and tones interract a lot differently than I'm used to - and I use/rely on them a lot

Well, I must say I started using my pots since I switched to this wiring and because of the way it works... I didn't like the (cr@ppy) treble bleed that was stock on my Vox and not having something to maintain highs when you roll down the volume is not an option as far as I'm concerned. I should probably try a better treble bleed network on one of my guitars, but I do find the 50s wiring "oddities" very useful on a gibby-like guitar.

I changed both guitars back within days/hours. So, unless you already know you like 50s wiring, I would not recommend trying it for the first time in a 335!! :lol:

Now Sir, you do have a point here.

I was surprised to find how expensive the caps are.

There's a lot of marketing BS about PIO caps nowadays - the most funny part of it being people paying OTT price tags for NOS (or supposedly NOS) ones given that PIO have a limited lifetime (about 40 years IIRC) whether they are used or not.

This being said, PIO caps are still better suited to audio applications than ceramic ones and you can find "not too old" russian PIO caps for a more sensible price (that is, still too expensive for a cap really, but a bit less silly). There are other good (and way cheaper) alternative like Orange Drop, MKT etc, in fact anything that's good for audio, but there's something with PIOs that IMHO works just fine for gibbies / buckers / jazzy and bluesy tones. Well, my 2 cents really, but anyway, by all means replace the stock caps with something appropriate for an audio tonestack.

I may fit push/pull or sprung pots to split the coils again. There's a thought !!!

I personnally tend to favor serie/parallel switching over split-coils, specially for lower gain tones. Still gives you a more single-coilish tone but without the hum, and without the "too thin tone / too weak output level" syndrom you get when splitting a vintagey 'bucker.

But YMMV, of course ;)

[AndyR]

Ah! (BigB) That must be the difference between me and folks that like the 50s wiring - I actually like and make use of the loss of highs as you roll down the volume :lol:

Maybe "like" is too strong a word - I didn't originally like it 30-odd years ago! I tried treble-bleeds and liked that effect even less (more recently I didn't like my Baja tele until I discovered it came with one - a quick snip with the cutters and the guitar was fixed :D). So years ago I must have got used to using the volume and tone together. Obviously it's too late for me to go back now!! :lol: