Thin finishes

[ztikmaen]

So I quite like the look of the Road Worn Fenders (I'll get hated for that, I know)
I liked how you could kinda see the grain through the finish and like the idea that it would age well, like a nitro gat should.
And then I read this

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/fender/10001-fenders-dirty-little-secret.html

And now I'm wondering, does the thin nitro lacquer on the Road Worn guitars still have the hard coat underneath? And more importantly how thick is the finish, must be thin right??

Thanks

[JacksonRR]

[Philly Q]

On the Road Worn I had, the finish certainly seemed pretty thin - on the bits where bare wood was exposed, it was definitely wood, not wood under a plastic coat. 

I can't say there was definitely no base coat, but the finish overall - whatever it was - wasn't a thick one!

That said, my Road Worn was one of the least resonant guitars I've owned in recent years - not saying that's a characteristic of the range, I think it was just that particular guitar.

[ztikmaen]

On the Road Worn I had, the finish certainly seemed pretty thin - on the bits where bare wood was exposed, it was definitely wood, not wood under a plastic coat. 

I can't say there was definitely no base coat, but the finish overall - whatever it was - wasn't a thick one!

That said, my Road Worn was one of the least resonant guitars I've owned in recent years - not saying that's a characteristic of the range, I think it was just that particular guitar.

Oh, well that's good! :)

Oh, well that's not so good :/ I should try one sometime I guess. All my current guitars are poly finished, I wish they came up with a way to make poly finishes thinner

[WezV]

what a silly article - fullerplast is hardly a dirty little secret

all lacquers and sealers can be sprayed thinly - nitro just has the advantage(major disadvantage) that it continues to get thinner as it ages

[AndyR]

Yeah, I'd recommend you try them - they do differ a bit.

Reading this reminds me that I tried Philly's at a London meet, and it didn't really "speak to me" when I played it. I assumed at the time that this was because of the colour (black with a maple board, and it hadn't got "polished" up like they do when you own them for a while), the type of geetar (it was a tele thing with humbucker), or some other imponderable I couldn't identify (but it was a "new" guitar for him that week or so, so I wasn't going to start looking for reasons to explain why it didn't grab me personally! :lol:).

It hadn't crossed my mind at all that it might not be as lively an instrument as I was expecting - the two Roadworn strats I own (one of them was with me) and all the 50s RW teles I've tried are lively as hell! :lol:

On the finish, I can confirm what Philly says - both my RWs feel like they have thin(ner) finishes (they are reasonably thick on the edges where the relicing has involved knocking bits out, though - but in this case it's taken wood as well, so it's hard to be too scientific about it). And, like Philly, I can't identify any "plastic coating" going on on the bare bits of wood or the junctions between wood and finish (btw, "nitro" is a "plastic" :lol:).

A while back I suspected that the Roadworns don't have the equivalent of the old fullerplast thing going on - and this is to help with the relicing and later aging. Not so sure now, and, actually, I've stopped thinking about it - I just like playing mine.

Btw - I read that LP forum thread - what a load of old "internet discussion"! I read some luthier explain a while back (mebbe one of "ours" on here, mebbe not), he explained "why are you all bashing Fender for this? You HAVE to put something on before finishing, be it more layers of finish or a cheaper (and more effective) compound if you want a smooth finish... and they are ALL plastics!!!". Most folks, me included, probably regard "oil" finishes as different, but they are basically putting a layer of "plastic" on as well :lol:

The "nitro" part of Roadworns is all on the body, mind (in case you don't know yet), the necks are finished with, I believe, poly before relicing. Doesn't unduly bother me because I'm known to strip the backs of necks anyway - I just finished off what they'd started.

Certainly the RWs seem to be a much thinner finish than the fully finished Gibsons I own (the Fadeds don't have the thick top coat that the finished ones have). Also, in my experience, whatever Fender calls "nitro" is not the same stuff that Gibson call "nitro".

I do like the finish on the RWs (not so keen on some of the dings they put on it, but who cares? :lol:). I love how it feels compared to some of the more "indestructible plastic finishes" I have on other guitars. One of the reasons I like it is that it loves being polished. Brand new they look like dirty uncared-for things. Rub it down with a soft/dry cloth every time you play it, and suddenly in turns into a different beast - it looks old and has a satisfying glow/depth. Feels very nice once it's got its "glow" back (that they removed during the relic process, I guess).

Interestingly, my Gibson ES335 ("fully finished" in a satin trans-black), feels a whole load different. The satin polishes up with just touching it. It also feels a lot thicker and softer than what's on the Fender Roadworns. I have to admit it makes the thinner Roadworn finish seem "harder" and "colder" to touch in comparison. The 335 just feels so organic and "wood-like"(!) :lol:

I hear what you're saying about "I wish they came up with a way to make poly finishes thinner...", I used to think exactly the same. But I'm reaching the conclusion that this might not be what I'm actually after. I have a CIJ strat with a "poly" finish that appears to be much thinner and more flexible than the nitro guitars I have - but it still feels "harder" and "colder" to the touch than the Roadworns do...

I really do not know whether nitro vs poly physically affects the tone the guitar is capable of making. But I do know that what the guitar "feels" like in my hands affects how I relate to it and therefore what tones I'm capable of squeezing out of it. I used to think "thinner finish = better for me", but with the 335 I'm not so sure now. I think it's more to with what the surface feels like and how it reacts to my bare hands.

I'd actually like to get my hands on one or two of Twinfan's PRSs now, just to see what they feel like. I know he's got converted to "nitro" over the last few years. I think I have as well, and it sounds to me like the same vibe I'm experiencing with the 335 is close to what he's found. How we all express it will differ, but what it amounts to is "does this guitar make you want to play it more than the others"

So, with all this, back to where I started - "I'd recommend you try them". If it feels good for you, it is good, and don't worry too much about what "experts" on the web want to tell you (including me!) :D

[tekbow]

I think what really bugs me about poly finishes is they're just not going to age like a nitro finish, and if you have the basecoat it's just never going to wear down like an old guitar..

[ztikmaen]

Great replies all! Thanks AndyR for taking the time to write a great response, I'll have to try it!
I have tried Gibson SGs and I greatly like their finish, very shiny and lustrous but the grain is still visible and 3D.
If thin finishes (especially nitro ones) are so very desirable, I think it's a shame that they're not more widely used than they are now. Fender and even Warmoth should have more Nitro guitars.

Maybe it's because I haven't owned a Nitro finished guitar yet, but I still love my Poly guitars and I suppose its kinda cool how it will look pretty perfect after a generation or two. :)

[Philly Q]

Another epic Andy post above, very interesting!  :lol:  :D

I really do not know whether nitro vs poly physically affects the tone the guitar is capable of making. But I do know that what the guitar "feels" like in my hands affects how I relate to it and therefore what tones I'm capable of squeezing out of it. I used to think "thinner finish = better for me", but with the 335 I'm not so sure now. I think it's more to with what the surface feels like and how it reacts to my bare hands.

I think this is a very important point - how the finish "feels" (to you) is probably more significant than whether or not the type of finish actually has an effect on the sound.

There's the tactile aspect of how it feels in your hands, and the psychological aspect of whether or not you like that feel - and as Andy says, if you like it, you'll play better (maybe not noticeably better, in my case....  :? ).  So the sound does change, but that's at least as much due to the player as the finish!

Personally I like the type of finish which feels thin (whether it's really, genuinely thin or not!) - I like it to sink into the grain a bit so it's not perfectly 100% smooth and glassy.  So, I really like Gibson nitro finishes.  I like relic finishes.  I'm not very familiar with oil-wax finishes but I think I'd like them too.

Also, if the finish isn't absolutely pristine the guitar feels more "friendly", I'm less worried about scratching it or damaging it in any way.

I'd actually like to get my hands on one or two of Twinfan's PRSs now, just to see what they feel like. I know he's got converted to "nitro" over the last few years. I think I have as well, and it sounds to me like the same vibe I'm experiencing with the 335 is close to what he's found. How we all express it will differ, but what it amounts to is "does this guitar make you want to play it more than the others"

I haven't tried Dave's upmarket, nitro-finished PRS guitars (although I think the satin finish on my Standard 22 is nitro, and that feels similar to a Gibson Faded I'd say).  On a typical "production" USA PRS the finishes are very smooth, shiny and perfect - but they do still feel thinner and less "plasticky" than something like a Fender American Standard.

[Elliot]

I thought the Am Standards from 2008 had thin poly finishes on them - certainly I don't miss nitro on mine.

Anyway, that article has been around for years is known ballony - trotted out for The Gear Page tossers who like to make comments about guitars they wished they could own but could never afford (well, parents could never afford, given most of them are 15 year old bedroom shredders.)

[Telerocker]

The Roadworns are in general good guiitars, just try one cause - like others said - they can differ a bit. That counts actually for a lot of seriesguitars. My Fenders (American Series tele and strat) ring like crazy, but they don't have nitro finishes.

[ztikmaen]

Yeah for me its not about the tone, but the feel and looks. I like bein able to FEEL the grain under my fingers to a certain degree

[Telerocker]

First of all I want to feel the tone in a guitar.

[jpfamps]

Intuitively I would like to think that a thinner finish gives the guitar a more resonant sound, but to be honest I have no evidence on which to base this assumption.

I do get the impression though that a lot of the prejudice against polyester finishes is due to the late 70's Fenders which is not generally regarded as a golden era of Fender guitar production, and the guitars from this era often have a very thick poly coat.

I've played some very resonant early 70's Fenders, which do seem to have thinner poly, but again I suspect there are other factors involved here.

I personally prefer the look of nitro finishes, but am interested in other people's views on this (especially guitar builders).

Also, is the nitro that Fender are using in the US the same as the old nitro, as I though the environmental regs had put the kibosh on the solvents used back in the day?

[WezV]

nitro is a very generic term and all nitro finishes are certainly not equal - but thankfully most are compatible, at least compared to other types of lacquer