Jazz guitars - how to get that piano tone ?

[AndyR]

Yep, ideally, I think it's a try before you buy guitar (mind you, they ALL are to me! :lol:).

I've just realised, I've got recordings online where you can hear various things my 5th Avenue has done. I've just listened to them to pick out the ones that I think illustrate what it could do. This has done a couple of things for me - it's reminded me that I LOVE this guitar (I must go and restring it immediately and make some music :lol:), and it sounds to me like sticking a P90 on this guitar and playing it through the right sort of amp could indeed give piano tones (and it's got bog-standard medium round-wounds on it).

Anyway, these are the examples where the 5th Avenue was used exclusively. Usually recorded with a large condensor, most without a plectrum. The 5th Avenue also appears on some of the other tracks (follow the link in my sig for the whole lot), but is buried amongst other instruments - eg on "A Hundred and Twenty Pound" it is the only acoustic, but I should have used the flat-top instead, I couldn't use the acoustic track as much as I'd originally intended, and I realise now that's what's "wrong" with it :lol:.

http://alonetone.com/andyr/tracks/now-that-youre-sleeping - this one is just the 5th Avenue and vocals. You need to be aware that there are voices doing a bass part from around the second verse or so - otherwise all the instrumentation is 5th Ave. There's, er, quite a few of them in places! This one, on its own, probably illustrates most of the range of tones I can get out of it.

http://alonetone.com/andyr/tracks/sleep-instead-of-teardrops-cover - 5th Ave, bass and a single vocal. Some of the guitar overdubs are the closest I get to jazz at the moment.

http://alonetone.com/andyr/tracks/sleeping-with-the-ghost - this is 5th Ave, bass, and a lot of vox. The first serious use I made of the guitar, I'd had it a week or so by then. I bought it for playing stuff like this.

http://alonetone.com/andyr/tracks/the-knife - again, 5th Ave, bass, and a single vocal. Sounds to me like there could be a very thin plectrum being used on the strummed rhythm parts, the rest is fingers.

http://alonetone.com/andyr/tracks/oh-darling-cover - I include this one because it's the only one without overdubs. It was recorded "live" with just one mic to capture both the guitar and vocal. It sounds like I had my usual "electric" pick in my had - 80mm Nylon. To me it illustrates how it can do the job of a flat-top for me, but still has this quality in the low notes that I can't get from the flat-top (and the mic on this was placed to capture optimium vocal rather than guitar).

[Fourth Feline]

I just had to take a brief break from my loooong sabbatical from the forum ( so I could actually practice / study the instrument ) - to try and chip in here.

I would say Manhattans with Thomastik Be-Bop 12 gauge roundwound strings ; or ( if you like heavier bass strings relative to the top strings )  the Newtone Archtops.   I have used the 'Be-Bops' for your desired sound in the past - as they are more 'zingy and bouncy'  than the ( also excellent ) Newtone strings. The Newtone 'Archtop ' strings will become relatively mellow after a few weeks, but the Be-bops stay sparkling yet warm.

The Manhattans give you advantage of the very open sounding Alnico 3 magnets - and of course being a single coil.

I currently use BKP Alinico II Stormy Mondays in my ' Practice till you drop ' guitar ( an Ibanez AF75 ) - and the Manhattans have done a similar job of transforming a 'Vintage' VS 575.  That stays in the box for when I'm good enough to be seen in public again, as it is wonderfully large . I would stay with a  thinline fully hollow guitar, as I really can hear the absence of a centre block.  

Whilst Stormies are a sure bet , I still feel that the Manhattans are  the BKP 'Secret weapon' for chord melody . I use the Stormies the most for practice and study, as they are the ones that sit in the guitar that is easier to pick up and leave around the house.  


Cheers !

 

[Ian Price]

Nice to hear from you again - seems like ages! Hope things are going well for you!

[Fourth Feline]

Nice to hear from you again - seems like ages! Hope things are going well for you!

Thank you Ian !  :)

Things are a bit 'variable' - but my resolve ( and pleasure ) in studying the guitar stays constant, when I can muster the concentration. The 'Sabbatical' being a genuine and ongoing wish to actually play / study , instead of writing about what I intend to play / study. 

I hope things are plump and warm for you too Ian.  :D

[Fusionista]

Thanks Guys.  Andy - top tone !  And FF it looks as if I will have to persevere with the fat flatwounds, and virtually inevitable I will be buying some Manhattans to drop into a thinline hollowbody - with a mahogany neck. (Anybody see where I am going here ?-)

[Fourth Feline]

Thanks Guys.  Andy - top tone !  And FF it looks as if I will have to persevere with the fat flatwounds, and virtually inevitable I will be buying some Manhattans to drop into a thinline hollowbody - with a mahogany neck. (Anybody see where I am going here ?-)

Do try the Thomastik 'Be-Bop' round wounds - and ( especially for the price ) a set of Newtone Archtops  ( also round wound on a round core ).  The marked difference feel wise, is that I like Thomastik's relatively light yet sonically balanced sets, which make a set of Thomastik 12s feel like a set of Newtone 11s.

I only use tapewound, for a 'zero finger noise' effect.  Don't wake up the listener !  :lol:

As you will know, the Thomastiks are very supple,  but if you tend to grip a touch harder than I do, the Newtone 'Archtop' strings are a high quality item.

Let us know what eventually lit your fire !  :)

[Fusionista]

Sorry I meant big jazzy roundwounds (didn't even know they existed !).   As soon as the deal is in the bag and the guitar is in my hands I will post a pic with first impressions.  But readers feel free to keep posting your views, it's all good.

[Philly Q]

Hey, Derek's back!  :D


(Sorry, totally unhelpful post)

[Ian Price]

15,000 + posts and still going as strong as ever   :D

[Philly Q]

Still talking rubbish, you mean?  :lol:

[AndyR]

Yo Derek!

I immediately thought of you the minute this thread started - I nearly posted "try searching for posts by Fourth Feline, maybe he's even watching and might join in"

Good to hear you're ok :D

[Fourth Feline]

I just thought to add that with fully hollow 'Jazzers' the thinner coated guitars are said to be more "piano like' -and indeed  when I rubbed down my AF75 to speed up the neck - and give a satin finish to the body - I genuinely heard a difference.  I gather Eastman guitars are brighter and more resonant, although ( sadly ) not from personal experience.

To facilitate the easier use of 12 gauge strings e.t.c , remember to stick with something that has a set back 'Lyre' tailpiece' - as that voodoo seems to make every gauge feel lighter than on my solid bodied guitars.

The scale length ( If you don't mind a bit more tension on the strings ) is often cited as a tonal factor, ( I.E. that the 24.75" scale is not as bright as  the 25.5" scale, the 25.5" scale length being the 'weapon' of choice with the 'heavy rhythym hitters' of the big band era.

I would add to that,  the idea that a Maple neck might be usually thought to  contribute a brighter sound  than the mahogany neck , but of course there are so many other variables in the mix.  Consequently, on my budget Jazzers, the Mahogany necked guitar is actually a touch brighter than the maple necked one

So as to not make the string type / gauge something that becomes just hard work on the fretting hand , Thomastik do go down to 11s in the 'Be-bop' strings - and of course 10s in the tapewound 'Swing ' series.  I think you might like the Gibson 'L5' series strings too, as I tried a packet of their 10s - and found them to be good and 'Jazzy' bright on a solid body, albeit not as lush as the Thomastik or Newtone offerings.

All of the above are probably stating the obvious for the original poster - and the majority of readers, but I wanted to throw them into the mix of the conversation for sake of thoroughness - and the casual visitor.


( * Slight thread hi-jack * )

Thank you to PhillyQ and Andy R for adding to Ian's warm welcome, much appreciated .  :)

Cheers !

[Fusionista]

I would add to that,  the idea that a Maple neck might be usually thought to  contribute a brighter sound  than the mahogany neck , but of course there are so many other variables in the mix.  Consequently, on my budget Jazzers, the Mahogany necked guitar is actually a touch brighter than the maple necked one...
All of the above are probably stating the obvious for the original poster - and the majority of readers, but I wanted to throw them into the mix of the conversation for sake of thoroughness - and the casual visitor...( * Slight thread hi-jack * )

Very pleased as a relative newbie to make your acquaintance too :-)  And please don't consider your contribution as 'stating the obvious'. It is counterintuitive that a mahogany neck might result in a brighter tone but of course that is is perfectly within the range of possibilities for individual guitars - even in the same model range. I had 2 ES-137s which were utterly different, one much heavier and brighter than the other (denser maple block I would surmise). With hindsight, probably should have kept that one and dedicated it to jazz, but that was then, and having two similar guitars seemed de trop when there was so much else to discover (and pay for).

As it is I do not think my next experiment will be a final destination by any means.  But I am determined to get that 'sound in my head' which for the sake of defining it is: 'piano with more feel' (than most pianists seem to achieve).

[Fourth Feline]

.. Just one last point :

I have found that a fully hollow guitar with the wooden bridge removed - and a light(ish) complete Gibson type 'Tune-o'matic' bridge assembly mounted into the top of the archtop, gives me better sustain and note seperation.

 As an example, if I use  an open string as a pedal tone for  a voicing , the tune-o-matic bridge keeps it ringing a little longer, without the rest of the sound going all 'solid bodied' on me.  I first tried it as an experiment on one of my archtops, as in my part of the U.K. there is a great low price ( cheap and cheerful ) guitar spares mail order company , from whom I could afford to order a couple, one with a narrow set of mounting posts - and another with the wider fitting.  I realised that even if the experiment did not work , I could still sit the floating wooden bridge over the relatively small holes.

I did try a tune-o-matic  top on the existing wooden base, but apart from having better note seperation, the sustain was not too much different. As regards the mounting of the 'new'  bridge assembly into my precious archtops, I found enough meat underneath / around the bridge pickup area , to make it seem a safe idea.

I found that the wooden versions, give a subtle blending effect to chords, and therefore make it sound like less of a 'strum' when you are using a plectrum - and although I gather the mass of metal might be seen as a 'tone dampener' by many in the realm of the higher price Jazz guitar buyers, it worked for me - and gave the added bonus of making re-stringing less fraught - and of course intonation absolutely precise.
 
No doubt you will have experienced some of these attributes this with your ES137s, and partly on your 'top ticket' ES-175s - but by modifying a guitar(s)  that was otherwise  A) Fully hollow  B) had a set back Lyre tailpiece , I was able to bring home the goods with new pots / caps and a pair of my beloved BKPs for under £500 per guitar.

I have not fallen out with wooden bridges, but a narrow mounting post slender 'Nashville' type bridge, ticked more boxes when it came to fine tuning the tone and attributes of a  lively sounding 'workhorse' guitar.  The only downside ( cosmetically ) - is that I found I needed to make a pair of light wooden sleeves to hide the screw threads on the mounting posts .  I got the idea from looking at the  pictures of the Peerless 'Robert Conti' model , but peerless position / mount  the bridge to sit closer by design on that model.

Cheers !  :)

[Fusionista]

Thanks for all the contributions above, which have definitely influenced my choice.

The die is now cast: Peerless Sunset with TI Bebop 12s. 

Going to let it settle in, but expect to replace the neck pickup ('57 Classic) with a Manhattan down the line. 

Will keep you posted.