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Author Topic: Epiphone SG, them pickups.  (Read 7145 times)

Miracle Man

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2012, 04:10:35 PM »
holy diver really didn't work for me and some other users that tried it in SGs
I remember someone loved it in a SG, but it was a supreme, with maple top, ebony board, so...

That would be me. But like you said, it's a Supreme, so it's not your typical SG. It's more like a tighter, thinner Les Paul and most users agree that the Holydiver sounds great in LPs.

IIRC, Jonathan (Feline) tried the Emerald in an SG and said that it was "OK". When I asked Tim about putting Emeralds into my PRS Standard 24 (all mahogany, set neck) and expressing my concern about medium output pickups in SG (which has similar construction), he said that a PRS resonates differently than an SG, so I guess it's not just the wood/construction you have to keep an eye on when choosing pickups, but also how the specific design resonates. That wasn't much help but I just thought I'd throw it out there  :)

Regarding the OP's pickup choice: I don't have much experience with neck pickups, but as far as bridge choices go, I suggest the Riff Raff. Reason #1: They work great in SGs (fact). Reason #2: They are able to handle all kinds of rock (classic -> metal). Reason #3: Since you have a modeling amp (no shame in that), you can get away with using fairly low output pickups and getting your gain from the amp. A lot of Diezel amp users, for example, use PAF type pickups and play extreme metal. So if you can get the gain from the amp, I'd go with Riff Raffs for extra clarity.

And regarding the Mule.. I tried it in my SG Supreme and while it could do metal and hard rock, it lacked some of the "punch" you want. I think that comes down to the Alnico IV magnet.  

Edit: Punchy-ness obviously also has a lot to do with your amplifier, so while you can buy the pickups with the most punch, its not just the pickups that deliver the punch. I remember installing a Mississippi Queen into my EPi LP and playing it through a small solid state marshall. I was like "WTF? Where's the thump?"... Later that night I tried it through a Marshall halfstack and I was grinning ear to ear.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 04:19:14 PM by Troy »

Nitwit

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2012, 05:39:48 PM »
mixing the bridge and neck can give more versatile options than the boring matching set.

BKPs matched sets are not the same pup for neck and bridge, in fact they can be very different pups (ie AIV neck / AV bridge, or AV neck / ceramic bridge, etc).

@Nitwit:

The RiffRaff is possibly the closer match to the first SGs 'buckers so if you're after the canonical SG tone they're what you want. Then you can try a hotter / fatter bridge (BD comes to mind but re-read Telerocker's post about it) or a creamier neck (Mule), or a Mule set (but I'm not sure the Mule bridge - which I never tried - will be as punchy and focused as the RR). FWIW Deafcat64 seems to be more than happy with Abraxas in his own SG (cf https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=28205.msg369766).

wrt/ the "how hot", it seems that the problem is mostly with "medium hot" pups, but it's more of a "general rule" and really depends on the exact guitar. Tim's "safe rule" is "either keep it really vintage or go full blast" - now some of us had good results with other choices (Abomb bridge for me, Abraxas for Deafcat64, and you'll find a few other examples I think).


Looks like I should be going for a Riff Raff matched set then, it really does seem to fit the primary idea of what I want out of the guitar.
Got any idea how do the Riff Raffs hold up with coil splits though? As the guitar has that stock.
I got an Abraxas bridge already in another guitar, so don't really want another one of those (They're absolutely lovely though). If I find the Riff Raff bridge lacking I can always switch them.

holy diver really didn't work for me and some other users that tried it in SGs
I remember someone loved it in a SG, but it was a supreme, with maple top, ebony board, so...
it was still amazing for leads, but sounded a bit dead for everything else (compared to the diver in other guitars)

the black dog has a lot of he holy diver voicing and tone, but it's a bit darker and softer
probably works in a SG, definitely not one of my first choices
might be a bit too smooth
I imagine a medium hot and bright pickup like the emerald might sound pretty good, though
but I'd stay under 10k, as Tim usually recommends, specially considering your main goals

Judas Priest has been using pretty hot and mostly active pickups for almost 30 years, but I'm pretty sure they used stock pafs and t-tops back in the 70's

I do really like the Emerald aswell, but I always thought of it more of a "LP" pickup, and it's on the list of what I want in one of my upcoming LPs. I'll

As for the Judas Priest stuff, when it comes to "old" musicians, I'm of the kind that love the old stuff, and mostly hate whatever new stuff they come out with, so what I like most about Judas Priest is the early stuff around the 70's - 80's era.
So it might work out decently enough regardless.

@Troy
The THR really do pack quite abit of gain, and you get editing software along with it, hook it up to your PC; fiddle with ALOT of virtual knobs, and you can drive it even further. Add in compression, boosts and whatnot aswell.
But ofcourse, as a 10w amp, you don't get the "oomph", but that's not what I was after either. (You can ofcourse drive it through some awesome external speakers and get some of that Oomph in there)

Really didn't know that the output on the Pickups didn't matter as much on a Modeling amp as it would on a proper valve. So, sir. I tip my hat to you, I learn something new every day.

Miracle Man

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2012, 06:35:05 PM »
Really didn't know that the output on the Pickups didn't matter as much on a Modeling amp as it would on a proper valve. So, sir. I tip my hat to you, I learn something new every day.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. English isn't my first language so let me try to clear things up.  :)

I'll give an example: I play a JCM800 which is a medium gain amp by today's standards. If I want a lot of gain I have two options - I can use a boost pedal or use hot pickups. I much prefer the tone of hot pickups pushing an amp so I didn't even consider the low ouput models. Now, If my main amp was... let's say a Mesa Boogie or Diezel, I would have a lot of preamp gain available, so pushing the amp with a hot pickup or a boost pedal wouldn't be necessary to achieve a hi-gain tone. Your modeller probably has quite a bit of preamp gain on tap, so you don't need to push the front end with a hot pickup. Lower output pickups offer other advantages however, usually more clarity, less compression and an extended range (that's why even some metal guys use PAF types). You can always make an open pickup sound more compressed by using a compressor, but it's impossible to make a compressed pickup sound more open with external effects.

All that said, I still prefer hot pickups over low ouptut ones for certain styles of music (for me this applies to modern metal). It's all about the feel. In my experience, the feel factor is important whether you're using a modeller, solid state amp, valve amp... A Mule can do metal and it offers a lot of clarity, but I still prefer the Holydiver for certain metal styles, even though, on paper, the Mule has a lot of qualities metal players look for. In you're case, I'd still go with a Riff Raff for the bridge.

Hope this helps to clarify things  :)  Also, this is only my opinion of course. Other forum members may disagree.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 09:08:38 PM by Troy »

itamar101

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2012, 06:39:20 PM »
Really didn't know that the output on the Pickups didn't matter as much on a Modeling amp as it would on a proper valve. So, sir. I tip my hat to you, I learn something new every day.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. English isn't my first language so let me try to clear things up.  :)

I'll give an example: I play a JCM800 which is a medium gain amp by today's standards. If I want a lot of gain I have two options - I can use a boost pedal or use hot pickups. I much prefer the tone of hot pickups pushing an amp so I didn't even consider the low ouput models. Now, If my main amp was... let's say a Mesa Boogie or Diezel, I would have a lot of preamp gain available, so pushing the amp with a hot pickup or a boost pedal wouldn't be necessary to achieve a hi-gain tone. Your modeller probably has quite a bit of preamp gain on tap, so you don't need to push the front end with a hot pickup. Lower pickups offer other advantages however, usually more clarity, less compression and an extended range (that's why even some metal guys use PAF types). You can always make an open pickup sound more compressed by using a compressor, but it's impossible to make a compressed pickup sound more open with external effects.

All that said, I still prefer hot pickups over low ouptut ones for certain styles of music (for me this applies to modern metal). It's all about the feel. In my experience, the feel factor is important whether you're using a modeller, solid state amp, valve amp... A Mule can do metal and it offers a lot of clarity, but I still prefer the Holydiver for certain metal styles, even though, on paper, the Mule has a lot of qualities metal players look for. In you're case, I'd still go with a Riff Raff for the bridge.

Hope this helps to clarify things  :)  Also, this is only my opinion of course. Other forum members may disagree.



I totally agree. Very well said. I honestly wouldn't have known that English wasn't your first language :)

Nitwit

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2012, 08:31:57 PM »
Really didn't know that the output on the Pickups didn't matter as much on a Modeling amp as it would on a proper valve. So, sir. I tip my hat to you, I learn something new every day.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. English isn't my first language so let me try to clear things up.  :)

I'll give an example: I play a JCM800 which is a medium gain amp by today's standards. If I want a lot of gain I have two options - I can use a boost pedal or use hot pickups. I much prefer the tone of hot pickups pushing an amp so I didn't even consider the low ouput models. Now, If my main amp was... let's say a Mesa Boogie or Diezel, I would have a lot of preamp gain available, so pushing the amp with a hot pickup or a boost pedal wouldn't be necessary to achieve a hi-gain tone. Your modeller probably has quite a bit of preamp gain on tap, so you don't need to push the front end with a hot pickup. Lower pickups offer other advantages however, usually more clarity, less compression and an extended range (that's why even some metal guys use PAF types). You can always make an open pickup sound more compressed by using a compressor, but it's impossible to make a compressed pickup sound more open with external effects.

All that said, I still prefer hot pickups over low ouptut ones for certain styles of music (for me this applies to modern metal). It's all about the feel. In my experience, the feel factor is important whether you're using a modeller, solid state amp, valve amp... A Mule can do metal and it offers a lot of clarity, but I still prefer the Holydiver for certain metal styles, even though, on paper, the Mule has a lot of qualities metal players look for. In you're case, I'd still go with a Riff Raff for the bridge.

Hope this helps to clarify things  :)  Also, this is only my opinion of course. Other forum members may disagree.



Yeah, I was abit befuddled about it tbh, so yes I misunderstood, but it had nothing to do with your English. I am a Nitwit, so I blame it on that.
Still picking up bits and pieces about gear here and there, so cheers for the writeup, truly splendid.
I'll especially take note of the JCM800 beeing medium gain. I've always thought that to be rather high gain. But then I'm not up to speed on todays standards. Ofcourse I do put the Boogie up there at the top of the gain chain, which might not hold true anymore either.
That said, I do love clarity, so I guess the Riff Raff is the way to go. Should work nicely.
I'm guessing that puts me down for 1 calibrated Riff Raff set.
Now there's the thing that BigB mentioned earlier about the potential brightness on the guitar, but I'm not too worried. All Mahogany, set-neck. Sounds like a recipe for mellow smooth tones to me, but again, I might be wrong, you know. I'm a Nitwit.

ericsabbath

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2012, 08:58:29 PM »
Lower pickups offer other advantages however, usually more clarity, less compression and an extended range (that's why even some metal guys use PAF types). You can always make an open pickup sound more compressed by using a compressor, but it's impossible to make a compressed pickup sound more open with external effects.

It's all about the feel. In my experience, the feel factor is important whether you're using a modeller, solid state amp, valve amp... A Mule can do metal and it offers a lot of clarity, but I still prefer the Holydiver for certain metal styles, even though, on paper, the Mule has a lot of qualities metal players look for. In you're case, I'd still go with a Riff Raff for the bridge.

 :D
Riff Raff, Mules, Black Dog, VHII's, Cold Sweat

Miracle Man

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2012, 09:07:09 PM »
:D

Other than the fact that I wrote "lower pickups" (which someone might mistakenly interpret as "pickup that is farther away from the strings"), when I really wanted to say lower output pickups, did I miss anything?  :)

ericsabbath

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2012, 09:23:37 PM »
:D

Other than the fact that I wrote "lower pickups" (which someone might mistakenly interpret as "pickup that is farther away from the strings"), when I really wanted to say lower output pickups, did I miss anything?  :)

nope
you expresssed everything I try to explain here everyday, and without needing star wars and kung fu emoticons  :lol:
I still love the higher output models for some stuff and the greater sustain, but I can't have everything, so I'm sticking with the low output models

just got an alnico warpig and a 70's dimarzio k10 (super 2) for my SG, but it needs a headstock repair
and when I think I'm finally done and satisfied with my riff raff/mule lp custom and my black dog/cold sweat greco, a friend offers me a VHII set for cheap right when I was about to sell my other pickupless les paul copy :?
damn you, tim
Riff Raff, Mules, Black Dog, VHII's, Cold Sweat

Miracle Man

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2012, 09:42:28 PM »
...without needing star wars and kung fu emoticons  :lol:

I have to admit, those emoticons gave me the best laugh of the day  :lol:

If you have the BKP addiction (or love to try out different pickups in general), I'm afraid the only solution is more guitars  :shock:  Curse you Tim for doing your job so well!!!  :lol:  I need at least one Les Paul, a 335 with SMs, something with P90s, and everybody needs a Tele (except Roo I guess  :lol:)...  when will the GAS stop?!  :lol:

Nitwit

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 03:51:57 PM »
Excuse my bumping and the forthcoming wall of questions.

Just recieved the Guitar, which took longer than expected. I did however ditch Amazon and get it from Thomann instead, saved myself buttload of money, which is saying something for such a cheap guitar.
Gave it a whirl, apart from some awefull string buzz it's quite nice, the fretboard is rather, grainy and the strings somwhat rasps on the board when bending, doesn't affect the tone though, and it'll work itself out in a few, uhm, years. I'm gonna let it settle for a few days and try to "play it in". If that doesn't work I guess it's adjustment time.

Regardless, on the subject of whether it is bright or not. What is bright exactly? It sounds darker than any of my other "playable" guitars, which are two Basswood body/Maple neck and a good ol' strat. Its ofcourse miles darker than the strat, but not a lot darker than the basswoods, but still quite noticable.
It sounds quite mellow and smooth actually, courtesy of the Setneck and Mahogany no doubt.

On a related note, I will ofcourse be switching the electronics aswell. Volume are Push/Pulls. I see that BKP offers Push-Pulls and their custom 550k CTS pots. Do the Push/Pull pots and the 550ks work well together? I'll be changing all of the electronics, and I quite like getting stuff from the same place instead of running around to different retailers. As such I'll also be changing the pickup switch and jack socket, the ones offered by BKP any good or are there better ones that I should look for? Related: Switchcraft straight 3-way toggle, I'm assuming this works fine for an SG?
The accessories site doesn't seem to offer all that much info on these things, which is a shame.
Also, I take the BKP caps are recommended for this one? I.e 15 neck, 22 bridge?


On the subject of electronics, I've yet to upgrade the electronics in my last guitar which I outfitted with BKPs.
It has a SSH configuration, 1 volume and 1 tone control. It sounds rather bright, I'm sure some quality pots might make it easier to tame. Right now it has 500k pots in it. The BKP ones are 550k, I fear that while it may not be such a huge difference, it might put it too far out on the bright side, while the BKP 280k ones may be too dark. Should I go for something in between? If so, what? Or are the BKP ones really the best choice, if so, which? As a note, this guitar has Slow Hands Neck/Mid and Abraxas Bridge.
This also brings me to the caps for this one. What to get?

I belive that should cover my questions, sorry again for the wall. :roll:

BigB

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 10:27:47 PM »
wrt/ your SG : don't waitn chabge the strings and give it a good setup (action, intonation) to start with - until then you don't know what this guitar's worth. As a full mahogany guitar chances are it's darker and more mellow than your other (basswod or alder / maple) ones, whether it's a "bright" or "dark" SG you can only know by comparing it with other SGs.

Oh and yes, 0.015 and 0.022 caps are good values for a SG.


No major reason to change the switch and jack now except if you pay some tech to do it - they'd have to be damn bad to have a major impact on your tone. Pots I can't tell I don't know what this guitars ships with, but if they are 500K, don't look too cheap and have a regular course you may as well keep them for now (but if they are anything like the utter pieces of s..t that were on my son's Epi by all mean get rid of them <g>).

wrt/ your other guitar: if it's already a bit too bright, 550K pots won't cure it. You can try lower values (in the 300/350K range) and eventually higher values caps (don't know what you actually have) to lower the cutoff frequency - or lower values caps to move the cutoff frequency higher (this might seem a bit weird but I found this to make the tone control more usable - ie less of a "on/off" effect - on my strat).

"BKP" pots (read this as a short for "BKP special order CTS pots" are, well, mostly CTS pots - good quality, but so will be "ordinary" CTS, Alpho pots etc. The trick is that the 550K spec makes sure you at least have 500K (this is "550K +/- 10%") - where ordianry 500K (+/- 10%) tend to be more often than not between 450K and 475K (I've rarely found a 500K pot to be more than 480K, and only once to be more than 500K).
 
Have: Crawlers, BGF 50/52s, Mules, ABomb, RiffRaff
Had : Slowhands (n&m), Trilogy (b)

Nitwit

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 11:49:54 PM »
wrt/ your SG : don't waitn chabge the strings and give it a good setup (action, intonation) to start with - until then you don't know what this guitar's worth. As a full mahogany guitar chances are it's darker and more mellow than your other (basswod or alder / maple) ones, whether it's a "bright" or "dark" SG you can only know by comparing it with other SGs.

Oh and yes, 0.015 and 0.022 caps are good values for a SG.


No major reason to change the switch and jack now except if you pay some tech to do it - they'd have to be damn bad to have a major impact on your tone. Pots I can't tell I don't know what this guitars ships with, but if they are 500K, don't look too cheap and have a regular course you may as well keep them for now (but if they are anything like the utter pieces of s..t that were on my son's Epi by all mean get rid of them <g>).

wrt/ your other guitar: if it's already a bit too bright, 550K pots won't cure it. You can try lower values (in the 300/350K range) and eventually higher values caps (don't know what you actually have) to lower the cutoff frequency - or lower values caps to move the cutoff frequency higher (this might seem a bit weird but I found this to make the tone control more usable - ie less of a "on/off" effect - on my strat).

"BKP" pots (read this as a short for "BKP special order CTS pots" are, well, mostly CTS pots - good quality, but so will be "ordinary" CTS, Alpho pots etc. The trick is that the 550K spec makes sure you at least have 500K (this is "550K +/- 10%") - where ordianry 500K (+/- 10%) tend to be more often than not between 450K and 475K (I've rarely found a 500K pot to be more than 480K, and only once to be more than 500K).
 



Right so. I did the question round before I actually plugged the guitar into the amp (only had like 30minute fiddle time, and I wasn't near my amp, or any amp at the time), and well. Appearently, and ironic enough. The pickup switch is busted. Yeah really, neck position works fine, bridge and middle pos don't work. They do work if I wiggle the switch around abit though, but cuts out again after a short while, so I'm almost positive it's the switch that's the issue. Haven't opened the guitar yet either though, as if it's worse than I think it is I don't want to void my warranty (gonna contact Thomann tomorrow and see what exactly they'll let me do without voiding it) Yes I know, my plans for it is gonna void it regardless, I just like getting things that work as they should originally.
While yes it might not be required to change all the electronics, atleast if I do I know exactly whats in it.
However, contrary to what I thought, the jack input looks good enough, and don't have the same signs as my other "cheap" guitar. so that might do.


As for good setup, was thinking the string change might do some good, but due to the above issue I decided to wait. As for proper setup, when it comes to tweaking a guitar I'm cr@p at it, so I usually hold that off until it's the only option left. I generally don't go within 3 feet of a truss rod without its cover on though, I know I'll break it, I just know it.
I'll see what the course of action turns out to be before I do something hasty here.

The pots have to go, ofcourse I've only managed to try out two of em, but the range is decent, but not optimal, and they're as flabby as the skin of a 120 year old. Tone knobs are does have good resistance though, but abit too much tbh, almost need a wrench to turn em. Might be that the flabby is a Push/Pull thing, I don't know, my first time even trying one.
The knobs aren't leveled either, which I found rather irritating, but that's a minor thing. Kinda like a humming top nearing the end of it's spinning cycle, or the world after a bit too much beer.
As said, I haven't opened it up yet to check the pot value, but I believe I read that they were 500k, and I went with that assumption when posting the questions.


As for the other guitar. Been some time since I've opened it, but it's going on the table tomorrow to install some strap locks, so I'll pop it open and check the cap value as I'm not 100% on the cap value right now. (think it was 47, but that might be in the ol' strat)
"middle" range pots seems like a good idea to me. Currently it is a tad bit bright, nothing unbearable, but it's near a 500k potted strat (Yes I have one of those). Current pots are also kind of an On/Off switch, so the lower value cap might be a good thing to try out. What's considered low and what's high though? Guessing a 0.01 cap won't really work.

Ah right, read that whole lower value pot than printed thing sometime, remember now, Must've slipped my mind, thx for the reminder =)
So much stuff to know, so limited space.

On another completely unrelated note. Not relating to BKPs or even Pickups, barely even related to Guitars. Just gonna throw it out there as I'm abit giddy.
Had yet another "new" guitar walk in the door today, was a complete surprise too. What it is befuddles me. It's old, beaten and has 13 year old strings on it of which the high e is missing. (Duh)
It's an Člite a 335 copy, other than that I'm at a complete blank, don't know the exact year, but it's most likely somewhere around late 60's though 70's.
Left in a basement for the last 13 years, without a case, just sitting there in a damp basement on a concrete floor all those years. Major cracks all around, whammy is missing(it's rusted shut regardless), each and every screw are completely rusted, 8th fret is gone. Whatever finish used to be on it is gone, if there ever was any, Truss rod cover is gone(which is rather an unique piece to this "brand"). A good chunk of the wood is missing between the bindings from the jack input about halfway down the guitar side, and looks like someones smacked the side of body with a hammer right next to the neck.
Haven't dared to plug it into the amp yet until I've checked wirings and done some readings, but the pickups look funky. Sorta like a mini bucker, but they're long, very very long, Around the same size as those long P90's. But it's still a 'bucker.
All of these are minor things, here comes the dousy, The neck is twisted.

Guess what I'll be doing for the next few months.

Am I completely bonkers to take on this project?
As a note:
It's gonna be my "practice to fix guitar", I'm planing to apply to a Luthier school next year and could use the "practice" when it comes to fixing up old, beaten guitars. One can only read oneself to so much, eventually one must take action.
A complete "practice build" comes later though, it's in the plans, if I get the time.
Just throwing it out there, as I said earlier. I'm giddy, a new guitar is a new guitar, regardless of the condition.
Which is also why I always treasure everything educational you guys throw at me.

Tom I

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2012, 06:35:17 PM »

Hello Nitwit.

Hope I dont just mess up your pickup choice here. I had a set of Riff Raff`s in my Gibson Sg.
I mailed BKP and told em how I really loved the RR`s in my lively resonating SG, but wanted a little more power to drive my amp a little more. Told  them I was concidering a set of VHII or maybe even the Abraxas and asked what they would suggest.
And and that I mostly play 70`ish classic rock/hard rock.

I`ll quote Tims answer:

"Hi Tom

I would recommend Abraxas over VHII for a significant bit of extra output but for a slightly harder edge and great classic '70s rock tone I really recommend the Emerald humbuckers.

Kindest Regards,

Tim"

So....a set of Emeralds are comming my way :D



metale

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Re: Epiphone SG, them pickups.
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2012, 08:07:58 AM »
I've always seen the Emeralds like hotter Riff Raffs, and I'm considering them for my second RG7 since I love the Riff Raff on my first one. But one this case (SG) I would probably go for Riff Raffs and boost if needed. They have the punch by themselfs.
Black Dog (b), Abraxas (b), The Mule (n), Mississippi Queen (n), Trilogy Suite (m)

Had: Riff Raff 7 (b), Painkiller 8 (b)