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Author Topic: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....  (Read 24607 times)

Philly Q

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2012, 05:06:01 PM »
What can't you play that you wish you could?

Everything!  :lol:

Seriously, the only things I can play well are things I've figured out by ear (or made up myself).

Whenever I try to learn things from tab books, videos etc I'm not learning in a way which feels natural to me - the fingerings are awkward, don't always seem to fit with my limited understanding of theory (I do have a need to understand what I'm doing!).... and everything comes out sounding/feeling very stilted.

I'd really just like to be able to play songs!  I don't give a shite about shredding, sweep-picking, arpeggios or any of that nonsense, I'm too old for that, I can bluff my way through a pentatonic solo if I know what key I'm in.  But as I've said, I can't pick out chords or chord progressions by ear.... so figuring out songs - properly - is just about impossible (or feels like it, anyway)
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Lezard

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2012, 07:37:13 PM »
I've more or less gone back to square one twice, once for classical and then again for this gypsy malarkey, each time I went right back to learning how to play an open string and make it sound good (which took a surprising amount of time) and I think it really paid off so it's something I'd seriously reccommend.

Never had much luck with tab books myself, now the transcriptions in Guitar techniques magazine are another story, everything is logical and explained and done with common sense rather than a desire for pin point album version accuracy (which is something that even the original artists can't be arsed doing live for a lot of songs)

Can you tell the difference between a straight major chord and a minor chord...what about a Dominant 7th? thats more than half the battle right there.
It wasn't a mistake, it was chromaticism, I swear.

Mr. Air

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2012, 09:15:47 PM »
What can't you play that you wish you could?

Everything!  :lol:

Seriously, the only things I can play well are things I've figured out by ear (or made up myself).

Whenever I try to learn things from tab books, videos etc I'm not learning in a way which feels natural to me - the fingerings are awkward, don't always seem to fit with my limited understanding of theory (I do have a need to understand what I'm doing!).... and everything comes out sounding/feeling very stilted.

I'd really just like to be able to play songs!  I don't give a shitee about shredding, sweep-picking, arpeggios or any of that nonsense, I'm too old for that, I can bluff my way through a pentatonic solo if I know what key I'm in.  But as I've said, I can't pick out chords or chord progressions by ear.... so figuring out songs - properly - is just about impossible (or feels like it, anyway)

If you need to understand what you're doing I would suggest getting some lessons with focus on theory (the stuff you want to learn). I like to jam along to different songs, and it makes my playing more stable, but it doesn't really expand my skills and knowledge of music. For that I think I'll need a teacher or doing some theory work on my own which propably would leed to nothing  :?
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Philly Q

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2012, 11:13:31 PM »
Never had much luck with tab books myself, now the transcriptions in Guitar techniques magazine are another story, everything is logical and explained and done with common sense rather than a desire for pin point album version accuracy (which is something that even the original artists can't be arsed doing live for a lot of songs)

I've never bought GT (although I do buy 4 other guitar mags every month  :roll: ).  Maybe I should check it out...

Can you tell the difference between a straight major chord and a minor chord...what about a Dominant 7th? thats more than half the battle right there.

Major and minor.... yes, I think so (I know it's the third which makes the difference).  Dominant 7th?  That sounds like jazz.  :?

If you need to understand what you're doing I would suggest getting some lessons with focus on theory (the stuff you want to learn). I like to jam along to different songs, and it makes my playing more stable, but it doesn't really expand my skills and knowledge of music. For that I think I'll need a teacher or doing some theory work on my own which propably would leed to nothing  :?

When I say I need to understand, I'm not comfortable with "this lick, at this fret, works over this chord, but I don't know why".... it just makes me feel uncomfortable.  It's the way my mind works, I'm quite mathematical so I need to follow the basic principles.  :lol: I need to at least know the key, how the chords relate to that key.... but I don't want to get into anything really complicated.
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Fourth Feline

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2012, 12:06:55 PM »
I've come in rather late on this one Philly, and reading through the many informative answers,
I will probably just be re-iterating many existing points, but here goes - as it certainly worked for me when

 A)  I did used to gig in a covers band - and  B) When I 'started over' with the chord melody stuff :

Set yourself a virtual repertoire / gig list - as if any of the people on here had asked you to fill in on a gig, in 3-6 months time - and just sent a list . As it is your 'Virtual gig ' at this stage, use approachable - but currently challenging personal  favourites.

1)
Initially, Assume your required 'duties' will be Rhythm guitar and 'fills'   - and then set out to meticulously go  one song at a time ,  pausing and going close focus on alternative chord fingerings if doing so does not collide with the general 'sound ' of the piece.  

2) Learn any 'new' chording and or riffs/ fills that song alone needs you to know. That is to say, do not go at chord work, riff learning and such in a generalised way. Only download / read/ experiment with a new concept if it is the very next thing you need for that one song.

3) Ditto for next song.  Start every practice session by working on the new material , and finish with a revision of the previous pieces, NOT the other way round.  Apparently the brain 'etches' / re-enforces new paths better that way round.

4) As the song list grows, you will have added / researched / understood a great deal more than you thought you could at the outset ;  and it will all have context and relevance , and be easier to remember - than if you just learned  'The big book of riffs' e.t.c.

5) At the end of your set list, you then imagine that you get an e:mail . telling you that you may also have to fill in,  if the solo player breaks a string, or double up for sonic effect.  This takes the weight off you getting it all note perfect in your mind, and instead gives you the fun task of simply getting better at whatever you can do by the time of the 'virtual' gig.

6) For learning the lead work / scale usage ( relevant to the underlying chord ) think only of the one phrase, riff, technique that the player is doing RIGHT NOW - not how hard the whole of the solo(s)  might be to learn.
Over time, this will have naturally presented so many examples of ' apt scale over given chord' in a memorable and practical way - that you will not have to rely upon a general knowledge , but can instead, hear in your head how it actually worked.  

Again, ( providing it is relevant to this part in this song ) - by all means find the same phrase somewhere else on the neck, or think of what you could  ad-lib, if you had to play solo over that specific part of the chordal progression, without repeating the  'first' soloist . For example ,  Think of the second solo in Thin Lizzy's "Still In Love With You" - or Snowy White ( Pink Floyd 'The Wall' era ) - having to play a tasteful / relevant version of the solo from " Another Brick In The Wall - Part Two" live on stage - only a few seconds after Dave Gilmour had just played the official / recorded version .

So :

Set a target / structure of real songs

Impose a good natured time limit ( in months)

Focus only on the immediate song

Research / download / blag / practice / understand only what is needed for the immediate bar / phrase.

Rinse and repeat, but revise the existing material - at the end of each session of having learned new material ; even if that 'New material' is only a five note run - or new chord.

I hope that made at least some sense Philly - as it would be great to hear of you actually getting a chance to do the above for real, as a Guest player in the Band of one of the other forumites !  :)

Completely starting over , was the very best thing I ever did - and even now , I have recently decided to revise my previous Rock / Blues 'stuff' - as an adjunct to the main Chord melody project - as I realised that if anyone asked me to 'fill in' like the old days, I was losing the ability to do so .

Enjoy !  :D





« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 12:21:23 PM by Fourth Feline »
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Elliot

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2012, 12:45:27 PM »
Out of interest does anybody ever bother with the 'In the Style of . . . . (Hendrix, Clapton, etc)' type lessons in GT and other magazines?  Every time I listen to them the seem to be by Guthrie Govan, and they sound like, well, Guthrie Govan (which is probably not a bad thing) and not the guitarist whose 'style' is being emulated.  Also, when they do guitar players I actually know how to play 'in the style of' (say Son House) the licks are never anything like what that player would actually play.  I much prefer learning whole songs from TAB, but that can take a long time - I am still learning Hideaway after about three years - at the last 6 bars now  :?

 
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Philly Q

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2012, 06:13:49 PM »
Set a target / structure of real songs

Impose a good natured time limit ( in months)

Focus only on the immediate song

Research / download / blag / practice / understand only what is needed for the immediate bar / phrase.

Rinse and repeat, but revise the existing material - at the end of each session of having learned new material ; even if that 'New material' is only a five note run - or new chord.

I hope that made at least some sense Philly - as it would be great to hear of you actually getting a chance to do the above for real, as a Guest player in the Band of one of the other forumites !  :)

Thanks for the long and (as always) thought-provoking post, Derek.  :)

I like the idea of concentrating on specific songs, and the elements which make up those songs, as opposed to thinking "there are so many things I don't know/can't do..."   The time limit is also a good idea - at work, if things have to be done, I get them done.... and perhaps I should be applying a similar philosophy to guitar playing, albeit not in a high-pressure kind of way.

Food for thought.

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dave_mc

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2012, 10:15:09 PM »
Out of interest does anybody ever bother with the 'In the Style of . . . . (Hendrix, Clapton, etc)' type lessons in GT and other magazines?  Every time I listen to them the seem to be by Guthrie Govan, and they sound like, well, Guthrie Govan (which is probably not a bad thing) and not the guitarist whose 'style' is being emulated.  Also, when they do guitar players I actually know how to play 'in the style of' (say Son House) the licks are never anything like what that player would actually play.  I much prefer learning whole songs from TAB, but that can take a long time - I am still learning Hideaway after about three years - at the last 6 bars now  :?

 

i rarely ever buy GT, but there's a clip on youtube for GG playing in the style of a bunch of other players, and i thought it was pretty darn good.

i'd say a lot of the other players don't always sound that close to the "in the style of", but, judging by that clip at least, GG is awesome at it (he's awesome at most things, to be fair, as you suggested :lol: ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUXk2ZrgcQM this is the one, i think.

Philly Q

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2012, 10:28:16 PM »
i rarely ever buy GT, but there's a clip on youtube for GG playing in the style of a bunch of other players, and i thought it was pretty darn good.

i'd say a lot of the other players don't always sound that close to the "in the style of", but, judging by that clip at least, GG is awesome at it (he's awesome at most things, to be fair, as you suggested :lol: ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUXk2ZrgcQM this is the one, i think.

That was pretty amazing (and in a way depressing, but let's not worry about that.  :wink: )

Funnily enough, the ones I found least convincing were the last few - Beck, Scofield and Hendrix.  Maybe he was getting tired at the end.  :lol:
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Kiichi

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2012, 12:27:46 AM »
This is a very good question. Asked it myself often.

There is a few things that feel like they really help(ed) me.

1. Guitar Pro. Being able to take a song apart, look exactly what is played...wow.
2. Jamming. Just improvising (preferably solo melodies) is a great, gave me so much understanding of it all (melody rythm, etc.). Love backing tracks, but also for example the first Keane album to jam along to. I am now starting to try and play the notes the lead singer sings, as I know the songs very well.
3. Playing by ear. Think of a melody piece you like and figure out how to play it until it sounds right. The chorus of a good pop song is always good for this.
4. When you hear something you like, look at what it is and (try to) play it. Saw this little Steve Howe like hybrid picking lick on GT recently and loved the sound. Learned to play it bit by bit and how I start to incorporate hybrid picking in my playing.
5. This video: http://youtu.be/atGBKuCJ-Jc This is incredibly motivating and the most expiring thing I have heard about the guitar (even if you donīt love Vai it should still do the trick). When I wander astray I just watch this again...and I get back on.
I think what he talks about might work for you too Philly.


I personally see myself as a lazy guitarist, although I get better slowly (not fast enough to justify my gear though...nowhere near it). Problem is that I am somewhat of an ADD guitarist sometimes. I try to do metal , bluesy stuff, pop stuff, alternative folk, folk,...
Either I will never get good at anything or Iīll reach singularity one day and become a good prog player xD
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DavidRees

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2012, 12:29:54 PM »
Kiichi

the Steve Vai motivational session is exceptional, very clear and focussed. Thank you for sharing

David

Kiichi

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2012, 02:17:20 PM »
Kiichi

the Steve Vai motivational session is exceptional, very clear and focussed. Thank you for sharing

David
Glad to hear that you like it as much as I do!
I always feel like more people need to see this, as it is not only applicable to guitar, but to everything really.
Just incredible stuff.
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Philly Q

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2012, 06:43:48 PM »
5. This video: http://youtu.be/atGBKuCJ-Jc This is incredibly motivating and the most expiring thing I have heard about the guitar (even if you donīt love Vai it should still do the trick). When I wander astray I just watch this again...and I get back on.
I think what he talks about might work for you too Philly.

Sounded interesting, but it keeps freezing after 2 minutes.  :x

I don't think my computer has enough memory to cope with all the extra video/advertising material on most websites nowadays, it's always struggling.  I need to replace it.

Sorry, that was off-topic.  I know I'm always off-topic, but I don't want to derail this discussion.
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JJretroTONEGOD

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2012, 07:36:54 PM »
get private tuition!

yes it costs money, is it worth it? hell yes, I learned more from private tuition than I could ever teach myself, I improved 10x in just one year and came out of it being able to play things that I though was literally impossible for me to ever achieve. Obviously you need a good teacher though but if you can find one it is worth it's weight in gold and will stick with you for the rest of your life.
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Lezard

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Re: Suppose you were to start learning guitar again, from scratch.....
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2012, 09:14:55 PM »

Major and minor.... yes, I think so (I know it's the third which makes the difference).  Dominant 7th?  That sounds like jazz.  :?

They show up everywhere (a lot of major blues has nothing else), you'll know it when you hear it, (X7675XX) - E7.

I really wish I'd started doing ear training earlier, being able to hear the theory behind something is so much quicker and easier than analysing things note by note and you'll never be able to play anything well with your fingers that you can't play in your head.

I'll also echo what others have said about metronomes, If you don't have time you don't have anything.

Also, the major scale, I'd learn it. I'd learn it on one string,I'd learn it across all strings, I'd learn it in one octave and I'd learn it in all octaves.I'd learn it all over the neck.I'd learn it in thirds.I'd learn it in thirds and 7ths,I'd learn it's intervals, I'd learn it beginning and ending on each note therein, I'd learn what it sounds like over all of it's diatonic chords,I'd learn all it's diatonic chords and how to derive them and I'd do this in all keys...if I had as much time as I want on guitar...  :cry: :violin2:

Btw nice thread, it's good to read peoples approaches to technique and musicianship, especially in a forum where everything doesent have to be a pissing contest.


Edit: And the boring tech exercises with a metronome really pay dividends, even with 15 mins a day, if you stick on one topic like bending accuracy, vibrato or finger Independence.


and I'll end my ramble with the most important thing of all. Relaxation. if you learn something with minimum tension it's just plain easier to play.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 09:23:46 PM by Lezard »
It wasn't a mistake, it was chromaticism, I swear.