==> HS Project: Mule or HVii ?

[philos]

Dear friends,

I'm building (kind of) strat with Warmoth parts. It will be a HS configuration with a SG custom switch (the extra pole allow to split the humbucker at the center position). Fairly bright woods: Ash body, maple neck and ebony fretboard. I added a scratch to help you to visualize.

I have played from jazz-fusion and progressive (70's) to heavy metal (80's) in the past, but nowadays I play most blues/pop-rock/rock stuff. From Zeppelin to "hairy metal", Clapton to Police and Pink Floyd of course. Can do even some  AC/DC sometimes. Nothing heavier.

For the neck position (with the help of the BKP team) I choose the PAT 63's  veneer boards, as it's kind of archetype strat sound, at least for me (60's pre-CBS but fatter than 50's). Will be easy to get a good blues tone from it's fatness, maybe even Gilmourish, but can sound beautiful clean too, and with volume rolled back, some  Knopfler-like tones. The basic John Mayer "easy listening" sound is nice too.

So, the conundrum is the bridge humbucker!

It needs to have a good split tone when wired with the neck position single (the idea is a decent in-between strat-like tone) and work well with the neck single when changing the switch in a solo.

It needs to have good crunch tone, of course, but nice chime when clean, still not sound thin. I think a bridge humbucker needs to have punch, but in this project it will be balanced with a vintage single, so, a vintage hot output that cleans well fits the bill.

The VHii appear as the obvious choice, but, judging by youtube clips, I'm afraid of it being too "in-your-face" and screamy. I don't know if it can sound as a normal PAF with volume rolled back or still more singlecoolish.

On the other side I love the Mule sound, but have doubt it can be versatile enough. I feel the Black Dog, for example as a one-trick-poney, perfect crunch tone but too midrangey for the rest. OK I was unfair with the BD but you got the idea.  :P

I must say in advance that I don't feel the Abraxas as simply a hot-roded mule just because the magnet. I fell the AIV becomes loose-sounding with the stronger wiring and the 43 wire makes difference too, as much as the magnet, as turns the highs less airy and compresses a bit. It simply don't thrills as the mule or VHii. Abraxas advances the point when versatility becomes a bad thing, IMHO.

Sorry my poor english, I'm Brazilian   :)

All the best

Felipe Santos

[Kiichi]

Sounds like a good plan you have there and I think you can go for the mule! It is very versatile. I have only made a brief personal aquaintance with the bridge model, but from what I have read over time it shares the same qualitys (and my tryout confirms this) as the neck, which I have in a Ibanez S series and love.

The Mule can do anything from classic cleans to Ozzy Osbourne sounds and more. Since you already like the tone I will not sings its praises too much and just tell you: I believe the Mule is versatile enough! Most versatile PU I´ve ever used, that is for certain.
I can take my neck model from folky fingerpicking, giant clean soundscapes with delay, over blues, to classic rock, to pop, to metal,....
The only thing where I felt it fell off was with really modern metal sounds. Still very usable, but not as supreme as in other styles.
Seeing what you do, I believe you will be right at home with this one.

[ericsabbath]

black dog
I'm afraid the mule might sound thin on an ash strat
the vhII has a pretty punchy bass, but a drier percussive top end
the dog has a fatter midrange and smoother top, but it's hardly a one-trick-pony, even on gibsons

[philos]

Thank you for the responses!

I really like the mule clips and videos. Most sound beautiful, but always in mahogany (usually w/ maple top). Said that, they sound quite punchy. Maybe could work even in Ash.

This is a clip of the same 63's + mule combination in a bright woods strat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv6ZEqGTqmk

I know the VHii will "work", as it blends well in a strat, has nice split tones, etc. But sounds a somewhat dry. I would happily sacrifice a bit of that enormous openness for a little more meat in the mids and a sweeter top end, but not as much as in a Black Dog.

[TheyCallMeVolume]

I don't know if Mules are the right choice. Id' say VHII.

[Telerocker]

black dog
I'm afraid the mule might sound thin on an ash strat
the vhII has a pretty punchy bass, but a drier percussive top end
the dog has a fatter midrange and smoother top, but it's hardly a one-trick-pony, even on gibsons

I agree with Eric
I have Mules in an mahogany bolt-on tele-LP-hybrid and they are perfect in that one, but in ash they could sound a bit thin, especially in the uppermids. I would consider a VHII or a Black Dog.

[philos]

I'm even considering change  body wood to Koa (strong mids as mahogany but more treble) to equalize the things a bit...Maybe changing the neck to Mothers Milk in this case.

The problem is, outside hard rock stuff (not my priority), almost all recording with the VHii sounded a bit hard-sounding to me, whereas Mules always bring me a smile.

A second clip with mules on Ash/Maple:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWqfFwbgx8A    (bridge pickup at 1:35)

Single notes sound meaty enough and sweet, although bright. But, in fact, appears to sound a bit thin for chords and rhythm stuff.  :?

Before knowing BKP I was considering Seymour Duncan Pearly Gates, that are the same 59' design as I'm pleased with it in Fenders.

Everyone, including BKP team, advice VHii makes me wonder, though.

[Telerocker]

The VHII sounds a bit drier and focused then the more vocal Mule. The mids are more compact. Maybe an Mississippi Queen, if you dig P90's, could be an alternative.

[philos]

Blues note/Mississippi Queen sounds really good, but would be somewhat weird in a strat. Sounds more of a Telecaster or PRS project. Not my cup of tea.

I'm considering to change the body to (plain) koa or black korina (not so expensive) with an ash top (i want simple aesthetic, so no maple here). Unusual combination I know, but can have more meat without sacrifice the highs very much. Still thinking.

I really like the mules sound and really think VHii is too dry to my taste. Black Dog is meaty and "ready" sounding, but much less lively when clean and at light breakup than Mules. I think. A cross between the two would be perfect (to this project).

In band situation we need always to go brighter than we would think ideal playing alone (when "tasting" the pickup tone for example).    Still more nowadays, when bass players think should be noticed.  :lol:

[philos]

an not decide between Mule and VHii...   :?

My doubt is about the equation wood x HS combination.

If I use mahogany or the like, I lose the authentic single neck sound. If I use ash with the humbucker the sound becomes thin (at least with the Mule, people said).

I think I will order the Mule and try. If not work, I change to VHii. Vhii has the punch and presence, but Mules has THE tone.

Black Dogs could work in a very bright wooden guitar, but, except for the nice throaty crunch tone,  I hear it too middy and nasal all the time, sound less versatile, I think.

[TheyCallMeVolume]

I would probably go VHII and if you don't like it try the Mule. But it's your decision!  :D

You like the Mules in sound clips with LP's most likely, not guitars like the one you have. Just a thought to consider.

[Telerocker]

If you go with ash consider the Abraxas for the bridge, a hotrodded Mule (but not too hot) with a vocal tone and enough PAF-pedigree, just a bit middier with a rounder topend.

[philos]

humm... I listen carefully some videos and demos to check, and really sounds like a beefed up Mule. Darker, though, but not muddy. Appears to be very a versatile "PAF-on-steroids".

It's more vintage sounding than VHii and do not overweight the mids like BD. In Les Pauls sound a bit too full, so would be nice on ash.

But, will it split as well as VHii with a PAT 63's veener board in the middle position, and balance overall?

I confess the punch and cut of the VHii has become appealing. More at home in a strat. Maybe more coherent.

Really difficult to decide.

[Telerocker]

I have a Crawler in a swampashstrat paired with IT's and that one splits great with the middle-IT. The Crawler is a sort of beefed up/middier/rounder topend then the Abraxas, which is a sort of hotrodded Mule. It works great in a strat and so will the Abraxas.
The Abraxas will split well with the PAT Pend, don't worry. I think it even splits better then the VHII. I have the VHII with Mothers Milk in a Fender American Series HSS-strat and maybe the due to the offsetcoils, the Fender 'quack' has a little less sparkle then the splitted Crawler/IT-combo. Talking fourth position.

[philos]

I'm certain that both would be good. Abraxas with a more traditional PAF tone and VHii with more bite and strat-like flavour rolled back. Maybe Abraxas has too "Les Paul" character  to this guitar.

How Abraxas sounds when vol is rolled back?

Isn't Abraxas too hot to balance with a vintage single neck pickup?

Thank you for all the help!