Unsung or overhyped?

[itamar101]

:lol:
Lets keep this civil guys.

[JimmyMoorby]

Look im not being aggressive and I would never start 'a fight' in person over Cobain let alone over the internet.  If I think youre very very wrong im sorry if I cant say it nicely.

I feel the need to add this thread started re underrated/overrated guitarists not 'cultural icons etc/MTV starlets' and I dont see how Kurt Cobain fits in compared to guitarists who are actually any good.  Did any of his guitar playing really have an impact on any thing?

Maybe Chuck was influenced by Slayer but he never stole riffs like Kurt did. Death metal started with Chuck after his band Death and its carried on since that time after Chuck died, such is his legacy.  I must admit I find your view re Schuldiner copying Larocque interesting but im not sure how I feel about that, they both had a 'crazy surreal exotic vibe' but I think so did say Marty Friedman did or George Lynch.....  Schuldiner really looked up to Larocque though no doubt.

Cobain was commercial, he was always ringing up MTV complaining his videos werent on dont make out if he was so anti establishment why didnt he make music in his cupboard? The reason I would go as far as to say I hate him is because he and Courtney Love were still taking heroin when they were having a child and afterwards and people like that should be put to death.  No im not a christian pro lifer but I just dont agree with drug abuse when youre having a kid.  Does it affect me personally no......but im not the sort of person who ignores bad things or bad people just because it doesnt affect me.
It's funny you feel as if I shouldnt put Kurt down when he was worse than any one for putting down other bands....he called Pearl Jam c--k rock after all and regularly called Guns N Roses because....well i dunno they were more succesful?

Kurt was a beginner to intermediate guitarist and I dont like anyof his riffs.....  I know all the emo slitty wrist folk like it and thats nice but he didnt know any thing.  I remember when he spoke of himself as a guitarist he said something similar to 'I cant play like Sergovia but the flip side is Sergovia couldntplay like me' which is beyond retarded.

For the record I really like Johnny Cash and as for Bob Dylan I dont get it but I dont dislike it.

Any way in summary ill say I think Kurt was a bad human being so its not just that he had little musical ability.  I really dont think he contributed much re guitar playing though and you'd be hard pressed to say he did compared to Randy Rhoads. I'm not sure why you need to put Randy down either for all his virtuoisty he was very humble and died tragically at a very young age, a very different species from Cobain!

Im a big fan of prog rock and what I call 'proper metal' so I clash with punks and 'grunge'.  To me I like music for music and I dont need some bands to sell me an image/identity/ethos.

[Dmoney]

Look im not being aggressive and I would never start 'a fight' in person over Cobain let alone over the internet.  If I think youre very very wrong im sorry if I cant say it nicely.

You are coming across as pretty aggressive. If you can't say things in a 'nice' way maybe you need to address your social skills.

I feel the need to add this thread started re underrated/overrated guitarists not 'cultural icons etc/MTV starlets' and I dont see how Kurt Cobain fits in compared to guitarists who are actually any good.  Did any of his guitar playing really have an impact on any thing?

I think it did. I think rather than looking to technical prowess to push songs a lot of bands started to try other ideas. I mean just of the top of my head I'd wonder where Radiohead or Blur would be without Nirvana, and another generation of kids love Johnny Greenwood and Graham Coxon even if you don't and those bands have written some great songs. Neither of those bands sound like Nirvana though. "Good" can be defined differently. I'll enjoy anyone who can produce something my ears enjoy. It doesn't matter about their technical knowledge or ability. I enjoy the guitar in Cat Power records. Tim Kinsella of American Football wrote some incredible music too. He is a super underrated guitarist in my opinion. I'd wonder where he might be without that rise of Nirvana. Whether he was directly effected or not. I've known really awesome technical guitarist who can't pull off certain genres at all. It's all subjective.

Maybe Chuck was influenced by Slayer but he never stole riffs like Kurt did. Death metal started with Chuck after his band Death and its carried on since that time after Chuck died, such is his legacy.  I must admit I find your view re Schuldiner copying Larocque interesting but im not sure how I feel about that, they both had a 'crazy surreal exotic vibe' but I think so did say Marty Friedman did or George Lynch.....  Schuldiner really looked up to Larocque though no doubt.

Slayer, thrash, death... blah blah blah. Bad Brains were tearing it up faster than most as far back as 1979. That is why the Bad Brains and each member of the Bad Brains remains underrated to this day. Also, as far as influential bands goes... nobody has yet mentioned Cro-Mags. Parris Mayhew is a BEAST of a guitarist.

Cobain was commercial, he was always ringing up MTV complaining his videos werent on dont make out if he was so anti establishment why didnt he make music in his cupboard? The reason I would go as far as to say I hate him is because he and Courtney Love were still taking heroin when they were having a child and afterwards and people like that should be put to death.  No im not a christian pro lifer but I just dont agree with drug abuse when youre having a kid.  Does it affect me personally no......but im not the sort of person who ignores bad things or bad people just because it doesnt affect me.
It's funny you feel as if I shouldnt put Kurt down when he was worse than any one for putting down other bands....he called Pearl Jam c--k rock after all and regularly called Guns N Roses because....well i dunno they were more succesful?

I have to disagree with your sentiments here. While I've never even tried a cigarette and I was t-total for 11years, knowing people who have had and overcome addiction problems, I would never make some blanket statement that anyone in a cycle of substance abuse should be "put to death". If I did, I would feel like I would be wasting my own humanity. Anything like that is tough to understand. I don't like that situation and wouldn't want to see friends go through it, but I'd never say based purely on what is reported about some strangers in that position that they should be killed. It's a tough thing to go through, and I doubt they themselves found it easy and it's easy to seperated from it and talk about what you believe they should have done (and maybe I would agree with those suggestions) but I can't back up what you've said I'm afraid.

Kurt was a beginner to intermediate guitarist and I dont like anyof his riffs.....  I know all the emo slitty wrist folk like it and thats nice but he didnt know any thing.  I remember when he spoke of himself as a guitarist he said something similar to 'I cant play like Sergovia but the flip side is Sergovia couldntplay like me' which is beyond retarded.

It doesn't matter how good you think he was or that you don't like any of his riffs. Do you think the best paintings are the ones that look most like photographs? Are the best sculptures the ones that most resemble real objects/people? Music is another form of art. I think you're argument (maybe even this thread) falls apart here. If people were trying to argue Cobains technical brilliance then maybe you'd be able to argue your points, but I'd say his music had a large impact and his music was just him using the tools he had available. I don't see how that is so offensive. Whether you like him as a person is irrelevant. I probably wouldn't enjoy being around Malmsteen based on his interview, but that doesn't make him a bad artist. Same with any painter, sculpter, architect etc...



EDIT: I'd also like to mention the guitar players Johnny Marr and Jim Martin

[JimmyMoorby]

I could reply to some of that but I feel the need to say you're taking this in a complete different diretion now and really twisting what ive said.

I didnt say drug users should be put to death that was very clear in what I said. I said persons who are pregnant or raising children and abuse drugs particularly drugs such as heroin should be put to death.  Any 'Mother' injecting themselves with heroin or 'parents' having a heroin habit around their children whilst  on heroin should be put to death.  Picture it properly a pregnant woman shooting herself up with heroin (Sounds like some Schuldiner lyrics though so its probably silly yeah?) or having a child in the house surrounded by dirty needles..... disgusting.  Last time I checked Malmsteen may be a bit c--ky but didnt sink that low!

If you can defend actions such as this in any way id love to know!  Will you be campaigning for paedophiles rights soon? 

I still maintain im not being aggressive. This is the internet and I disagree with what others have said.  Im not stood in the street shouting in your face threatening you or attacking you.  That is aggression, not being sat behind a computer screen exchanging views.  I probably shouldnt have brought up my views on this and regret it.... its like challenging Michael Jackson fans on the fact he has sex with kids I guess!

It does baffle me how any one can think thats AS A GUITARIST Kurt should even be mentioned in the same sentence as say Randy Rhoads but meh

[Dmoney]

I could reply to some of that but I feel the need to say you're taking this in a complete different diretion now and really twisting what ive said.

I didnt say drug users should be put to death and very clear for what I said. I meant persons who are pregnant or raising children and abuse drugs particularly drugs such as heroin should be put to death.  Any 'Mother' injecting themselves with heroin or 'parents' having a heroin habit around their children whilst  on heroin should be put to death.  Picture it properly a pregnant woman shooting herself up with heroin (Sounds like some Schuldiner lyrics though so its probably silly yeah?) or having a child in the house surrounded by dirty needles..... disgusting.

If you defend that in any way id love to know......

I'm not defending it at all, but I personally think that suggesting people be put to death based purely on second hand knowledge of their drug habits and absolutely nothing else about their situation personally or socially is ridiculous. I don't presume to know what goes through the minds of those people but I wouldn't judge them and sentence them to death when I don't know anything about anyone in that situation. I don't think people laugh and joke while shooting up during pregnancy. My opinion is that you seem to have a pretty black & white view about it all. I don't need to picture it, I know people that have come through addiction and watched a lot of their friends die in the process. If you think they deserved to die then I think it's you that is the real sub human. I'd just like to stress, I don't feel you've touched a nerve with me. I'm just clarifying where I stand what you've said. Now we can agree to disagree and the thread can continue.

[JimmyMoorby]

I could reply to some of that but I feel the need to say you're taking this in a complete different diretion now and really twisting what ive said.

I didnt say drug users should be put to death and very clear for what I said. I meant persons who are pregnant or raising children and abuse drugs particularly drugs such as heroin should be put to death.  Any 'Mother' injecting themselves with heroin or 'parents' having a heroin habit around their children whilst  on heroin should be put to death.  Picture it properly a pregnant woman shooting herself up with heroin (Sounds like some Schuldiner lyrics though so its probably silly yeah?) or having a child in the house surrounded by dirty needles..... disgusting.

If you defend that in any way id love to know......

I'm not defending it at all, but I personally think that suggesting people be put to death based purely on second hand knowledge of their drug habits and absolutely nothing else about their situation personally or socially is ridiculous. I don't presume to know what goes through the minds of those people but I wouldn't judge them and sentence them to death when I don't know anything about anyone in that situation. I don't think people laugh and joke while shooting up during pregnancy. My opinion is that you seem to have a pretty black & white view about it all. I don't need to picture it, I know people that have come through addiction and watched a lot of their friends die in the process. If you think they deserved to die then I think it's you that is the real sub human. I'd just like to stress, I don't feel you've touched a nerve with me. I'm just clarifying where I stand what you've said. Now we can agree to disagree and the thread can continue.

Youre still missing the point.

I dont think drug users should be put to death.

I think sub-humans  who subject babies or children to drugs such as heroin (Which is very likely to kill or disable them) are a waste of oxygen.  If you know drug users fine.  If you are friends or excuse people who subject children drugs such as heroin I admit in that context I could get pretty aggressive with you!

I've had friends die from drug use but NONE of them forced it on others let alone children.

[Hammerheart]

So... Are you a Pete Doherty fan as well?

[JimmyMoorby]

So... Are you a Pete Doherty fan as well?

Dont see how thats relevant?

[Dmoney]

Nobody I know forced anything like that on kids or others either, nor do I support that. I'm glad I'm safe from your aggression.

EDIT: I just noticed that you edited your post to ask if I don't want drug abusers who are pregnant or parents to be put to death, would I campaign for rights for peadophiles. The answer to this question is no. I don't think you've understood what I've said, which is a shame, and jumping from that issue to that sarcastic assumption is something I do find incredibly offensive on a personal level... internet or not.
As far as Kurt and Rhodes in the same sentence... I can see that being baffling if people were comparing technical ability alone but I'm not sure that is the best measure. You might disagree.

[James C]

Kurt Cobain as a guitarist......influenced millions of people, had i not heard the "Bleach" album, i may never have picked up a guitar at all, it had raw, catchy and IMHO some heavy riffs on that album that directly influenced me.

When asked about kurt as a guitarist, Mick "No#7" Thomson even admitted that while kurt couldn't sweep arpeggios at a million miles an hour, Mick couldn't write a riff as good as Smells Like Teen Spirit.

Yes, kurt was an extremely troubled person whos drug use was harmful to himself and to his child and those close to him, but this thread is evaluating someones influence as a guitarist, not as messianic paragons of virtue

[Hammerheart]

Think of the children!

[richard]

I never thought I'd hear anyone on this forum talk about people being put to death mainly due to their lack of musical ability. It seems that Jimmy's hatred stems firstly from a dislike of Kurt Cobain's music and secondly from a distaste for how he lived his life. Jimmy clearly has no understanding of the tragedy that is heroin addiction. Many great works of art, music and literature have come from people who are tortured souls - sad but true.

[JimmyMoorby]

Im not even going to get into the rights and wrongs of heroin addiction and havent so I dont seehow you can judge me.  Ive made it clear this is about subjecting children to it and im not going to repeat this any more it seems like many of youcant grasp this VERY simple point which ive made VERY clear.  I've also made it VERY clear I dont think drug users should be put to death, just those who subject children to it.  I personally think heroin is stupid and I dont know any heroin user who think its a good idea.  Whilst many of them cant hold down jobs and do commit crime to fund their habits this is very annoying and should be punishable (NOT BY DEATH) and they should be forced to go on drug programmes to get off of it.......... shocking I know, im so right wing bordering on crazy neo-nazi ideology (Sarcasm) but Class A drugs are still illegal in the UK!  Any way my point is that even if a heroin addict leaves a dirty used needle in a public place for some one to get caught on catch say hep c or b that would be disgusting but even the VAST majority of heroin addicts would know that sort of lifestyle and injecting yourself with heroin is disgusting.

You have no idea how many drug addicts or heroin addicts I know.  I think theyre naive and weak butI wouldnt suggest putting them to death.  The ones who hurt kids?  Well I  wouldnt lose an sleep if anyone did although I wouldnt go and kill them personally......its a common expression yunno 'I could kill him' or 'they should be shot' etc etc.  Doesnt mean ive planned or commited any murders ! It happens far too much a bit of methadone getting in a childs milk bottle and dying or babies born with deformties or addicted to heroin.

 If any of you bother to do your research youll find that your precious Kurt Cobain who influenced millions with a few power chords and Courtney Love were still taking heroin whilst Love was pregnant.  I must admit I have a very sick sense of humour at times but I draw the line at kids being subjected to heroin or harm.

Like I said I regret bringing this up now but I believe someone said 'Keep this is perspective dont say you hate him'.  Well ive explained that I think Kurt was a rubbish guitarist, singer, songwriter, a plagiarist and an awful person.  Mock me all you want and say im aggressive but I really think i'm right and you're all wrong.  To me you're like all the crazy Michael Jackson fans who said he was innocent even though he admiited on national TV to sleeping with kids!  I've justified my hatred for him I guess most people this God awful dont get called a cultural icon though. 

On a lighter note I remember Mick saying something similar to that too about Cobain...... and also that his favourite guitarist ever is Randy Rhoads ;)  Like I said I wish id never brought this up now and wouldnt bother to post again but im not being misrepresented by people saying I want to 'kill all the druggies'. 

For Gods sakes I took lots of drugs when I was younger just about every thing BUT heroin.  I personally think I have the strength of mind to never get addicted to any drugs and I wasnt stupid enough to even try heroin but you ALWAYS have a choice when it comes to subjecting other persons to drugs no matter how addicted you are.

[JimmyMoorby]

I never thought I'd hear anyone on this forum talk about people being put to death mainly due to their lack of musical ability. It seems that Jimmy's hatred stems firstly from a dislike of Kurt Cobain's music and secondly from a distaste for how he lived his life. Jimmy clearly has no understanding of the tragedy that is heroin addiction. Many great works of art, music and literature have come from people who are tortured souls - sad but true.

And I definitely never said any one should be put to death for a lack of musical ability............Christ this is just a case of me repeating my self now.....

[Hammerheart]

Drugs are bad m'kay. lol at off topic raging.