Username: Password:

Author Topic: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???  (Read 41795 times)

Roobubba

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2786
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2013, 11:25:02 AM »
I remember a few years ago an amp manufacturer claiming that their solid state amp produced the same tonal characteristics as a valve amp. They had images of the signal being analysed on oscilloscopes and other gizmos to prove their point. Just goes to show there are some things you can't analyse with a gizmo.

Actually, no!

It goes to show that the things you analyse with the gizmo aren't necessarily the things you think you're analysing.

This is why in all of science, we have controls. Controls in an experiment are the data points that indicate you're measuring what you expect to be, and that you can't measure it when it's absent.

I haven't read the document, but as a PhD supervisor for several years, I know that the first thing I would ask is "what are your controls?"

Roo

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2013, 12:52:46 PM »
Way too many issues with his 'research':

1)  No details on the guitars and pickups used
2)  No details of the machine(s) used to record the "harmonic content"
3)  Were the guitars DI'd or played through an amp?
4)  No definition of his interpretation of "significant difference"
5)  As Roo says, no defined baseline or control for the comparisons
etc

I'd like to see the full paper when it's written, until then he's just giving his opinion.  Which I disagree with.

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2013, 01:00:46 PM »
This was what Tim Mills had to say on the subject:

I don’t want to upset all of the guitar makers, but this reliance on the body timber as being the whole source of the tone is a complete misnomer. My understanding of it, which is based on my own investigations and also having worked with some of the better luthiers in the country, is that the guitar’s voice comes from the pickup. The feel and the resonance and the sustain are a combination of body timber and body construction.

“With pickups, I believe that if you can find the right voice with your guitar pickup, then you will really bring out the best in your guitar. After all, an electric guitar without a pickup doesn’t work. The pickup is the guitar’s mouthpiece; the pickup hears the sound of the strings, but equally the strings are reliant on factors like the timber and the construction as to how resonant they are going to be. That’s when the importance of timber comes into it, but the ‘voicing’ is down to the pickup and how carefully you choose the materials. As with all of these things, it’s a combination of the whole.”

I also disagree with Tim here.  I have two identical guitars, with the exception of the neck wood - one is mahogany and the other is pernambuco.  My wife, a non-guitarist, can hear the difference between the two when played by me back-to-back through the same rig.

Based on my "research", guitar wood DOES affect the voice of the instrument.  Paul Reed Smith agrees with me too, and he likes to use the following example.

"Guitar pickups are like microphones, they transfer the voice of the guitar.  No matter what microphone you put on Barbra Streisand, she's not going to sound like Paul Rodgers, right?”

darkbluemurder

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2246
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2013, 01:26:05 PM »
" No matter what microphone you put on Barbra Streisand, she's not going to sound like Paul Rodgers, right?”

Definite candidate for quote of the year.

Cheers Stephan

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2013, 01:39:09 PM »
:lol:

Paul uses that quote a lot, and I like it!   8)

WezV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5838
    • http://wezvenables.co.uk
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2013, 04:38:41 PM »
I also disagree with Tim here.  I have two identical guitars, with the exception of the neck wood - one is mahogany and the other is pernambuco.  My wife, a non-guitarist, can hear the difference between the two when played by me back-to-back through the same rig.


I dont think the quote from Tim rules that out - certainly the second paragraph allows for wood influencing the sound.   He is saying wood is not the whole source of the sound, not that it isnt even a factor.

Quote
Based on my "research", guitar wood DOES affect the voice of the instrument.  Paul Reed Smith agrees with me too, and he likes to use the following example.

"Guitar pickups are like microphones, they transfer the voice of the guitar.  No matter what microphone you put on Barbra Streisand, she's not going to sound like Paul Rodgers, right?”

Well i also agree with you both, and with tim - because i dont think the points are mutually exclusive

but the analogy falls down (sorry Mr Smith) because a pickup is probably the least transparent 'microphone'  possible.  If it wasn't PRS wouldn't need to offer more than one model of pickup and he could be totally reliant on the construction elements of the guitar to get the sounds people want.

a closer analogy would be to have Babs and paul sing through a dalek voice converter.   There will be elements of their own voice that cause differences to the final sound due to the construction differences between Babs and Paul.  But there will also be the properties of the non-transparent microphone (dalek voice converter) forcing their imprint on the final sound too

Roobubba

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2786
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2013, 04:58:24 PM »
a closer analogy would be to have Babs and paul sing through a dalek voice converter.   There will be elements of their own voice that cause differences to the final sound due to the construction differences between Babs and Paul.  But there will also be the properties of the non-transparent microphone (dalek voice converter) forcing their imprint on the final sound too

As a happy side effect, it would vastly improve the voice of at least one of them, too. :)

DaveyHoran

  • Flyweight
  • *
  • Posts: 58
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2013, 05:37:39 PM »
Way too many issues with his 'research':

1)  No details on the guitars and pickups used
2)  No details of the machine(s) used to record the "harmonic content"
3)  Were the guitars DI'd or played through an amp?
4)  No definition of his interpretation of "significant difference"
5)  As Roo says, no defined baseline or control for the comparisons
etc

I'd like to see the full paper when it's written, until then he's just giving his opinion.  Which I disagree with.

I agree that their would need to be a strict set of controls in order to prove the theory, but in fairness, you have to assume that his research will need to be more detailed than the article on a guitar website, at least 10,000 words more detailed and fully referenced...as would any Thesis.

Would anyone here take a pepsi challange??? I can record a couple of sound clips and you could try to guess the woods? What variables/controls would I need to eliminate to make the challenge fair??? (with the exception of telling you what guitars I use)

(may take a few days to get this together but might be worth attempting)




Nailbomb, Coldsweat, Mule, Riffraff and a set of Stormy Mondays

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2013, 05:43:53 PM »
According to him, all we need to do is hear a difference - which is what he says doesn't exist....

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2013, 05:48:11 PM »
Well i also agree with you both, and with tim - because i dont think the points are mutually exclusive

but the analogy falls down (sorry Mr Smith) because a pickup is probably the least transparent 'microphone'  possible.  If it wasn't PRS wouldn't need to offer more than one model of pickup and he could be totally reliant on the construction elements of the guitar to get the sounds people want.

a closer analogy would be to have Babs and paul sing through a dalek voice converter.   There will be elements of their own voice that cause differences to the final sound due to the construction differences between Babs and Paul.  But there will also be the properties of the non-transparent microphone (dalek voice converter) forcing their imprint on the final sound too

All microphones influence the sound, but they're not blankets Wez ( unlike the Dalek machine!  :lol: ).  I would say a vintage PAF is reasonably transparent - put one in a Tele neck vs a Les Paul neck and you'll certainly hear a difference.

We seem to read Tim's quote differently.  He only mentions sustain, feel and resonance - not voice - so he may well side with the research...

WezV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5838
    • http://wezvenables.co.uk
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2013, 06:40:22 PM »
I know it was a silly example - but so is pauls.  the truth is probably somewhere in the middle

but i dont see how anyone can separate sustain and resonance from tone or voice which is probably why i read tims quote the way i do

Good sustain means you have an efficiently vibrating string which will have an immediate effect on what the pickup sees

Good resonance may mean the wood is absorbing more of the string vibrations, and possibly feeding it back into the pickup affecting tone or just taking it away from the string and filtering out certain frequencies

I have said before that I think its wrong to think of the pickup as an isolated element.  most ignore that the pickup is vibrating along with the rest of the guitar (we know this because we know microphonic pickups happen).   The pickup gets its vibrations from whatever it is connected to - ultimately the string.  but it comes via and is filtered by the bridge/nut/neck/bodywood/pickup ring/screw/springs.   

It makes sense to me that a vibrating magnetic field would sense a vibrating string differently to the way a static magnetic field would ???   I think you can hear this when direct mounting pickups- you get a much stronger body vibration straight to the pickup, and it sounds quite different to when the rings and springs are there (which still transmit vibration to the pickup)

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2013, 06:43:37 PM »
Yep - I'm with you now Wez  :)

Philly Q

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 18109
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2013, 06:50:24 PM »
Yeah, well said, Wez.

I was reading Tim's comment thinking that I couldn't really disagree with any specific thing he said, and yet feeling that I couldn't really agree with the comment as a whole!
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

lyonk55

  • Featherweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2013, 07:09:05 PM »
Way too many issues with his 'research':

1)  No details on the guitars and pickups used
2)  No details of the machine(s) used to record the "harmonic content"
3)  Were the guitars DI'd or played through an amp?
4)  No definition of his interpretation of "significant difference"
5)  As Roo says, no defined baseline or control for the comparisons
etc

I'd like to see the full paper when it's written, until then he's just giving his opinion.  Which I disagree with.

I'd like to read it too. And if I don't see about 60 huge tables and graphs, with F-tests, linear regression and all that jazz to actually prove if there is a significant statistical difference, I'm not going to be impressed!  :P

Philly Q

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 18109
Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2013, 07:14:19 PM »
I'd like to read it too. And if I don't see about 60 huge tables and graphs, with F-tests, linear regression and all that jazz to actually prove if there is a significant statistical difference, I'm not going to be impressed!  :P

If I do see about 60 huge tables and graphs, with F-tests, linear regression and all that jazz to actually prove if there is a significant statistical difference.... then my eyes will glaze over in about 2 seconds and I'll go and read something else.  :|

Someone else can summarise for me, hopefully....
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM