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Author Topic: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???  (Read 41849 times)

lyonk55

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2013, 07:33:24 PM »
I'd like to read it too. And if I don't see about 60 huge tables and graphs, with F-tests, linear regression and all that jazz to actually prove if there is a significant statistical difference, I'm not going to be impressed!  :P

If I do see about 60 huge tables and graphs, with F-tests, linear regression and all that jazz to actually prove if there is a significant statistical difference.... then my eyes will glaze over in about 2 seconds and I'll go and read something else.  :|

Someone else can summarise for me, hopefully....

Fair enough. I'd just be sore over having to sit through statistics lecture, then finding out you can actually make claims without them. If we had to do it, so does he!

DaveyHoran

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2013, 08:33:45 PM »

So would anyone take the pepsi challenge if I record a few basic sound clips...no effects, just clean tone through a tone port ux1 with no amp models selected.

I would record three different electric guitar sound clips clips and you can try to name the wood in either the neck or the body?  without telling you the make or model of the guitar obviously... I could tell you the guage string and the pickup brand to reduce the variables... Anything else that would make the test fairer?





 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 08:36:23 PM by DaveyHoran »
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MDV

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2013, 09:16:30 PM »
Experience and the pretty obvious mechanics of it:

Pickups pick up what happens on the string.

What happens on the string is determined by the materials, geometry and construction of the guitar. Its a resonant feedback loop: the string is a very broadband oscillator, the guitar is not. The string forces the guitar to resonate, but it can do so with a very limited spectrum and dynamic envelope compared to the string, so when the guitar resonates and forces the string to do so (the resonant feedback part), it forces the string to take on only vibrational modes and dynamic envelopes that the guitar can support.

Subjectively, I've heard many pickups in many guitars, and any given pickup in my possession has been in at least 2 guitars (probably more), and any guitar in my possession will have had much more than two pickup. Both play a part, both have signature characteristics, guitar and pickup. You start to learn what the pickup will take with it wherever it goes when you've had it in a few guitars, and you hear how the guitar sounds and behaves no matter what pickup is in it. With each combination, I've never heard the exact same sound twice. Every one is unique. The differences can be small, but there are always differences.

More experience, and comment on his video:

Observation 1: disappointingly incoherent and rambling. Not a good sign.
2: the first thing that even resembles an empirical argument: stienberger has saddles with more mass. Just before he said the mass/density of the wood doesnt have an effect. Its extremely well established (in physics, which I suspect he has little to no knowledge of) that a harmonic oscillators mass affects its resonance. A: Make up your mind. B: No, hes wrong.
3: The nut has little, even arguably nothing to do with the behaviour of a fretted note.
4: Sustain is hardly the sole measure of a guitars sonic behaviour. There are LOTS of other variables.
5. The wall is not in the vibration path of the strings. Its not part of the resonant feedback loop with the string. It will be, no doubt, sapping some sustain as it simply has to be sapping some energy out, but he doesnt bother to actually measure anything, let alone in a variable controlled way. This depresses me. I wanted a better fight.
6. Fortunately, cotton and blubber dont resonate readily or transmit vibration well. Qualitatively, low quality and area contact with them cant be expected to have a significant damping influence on the structurally transmitted vibration of the guitars resonance, and so doesnt affect the resonant feedback between the guitar and strings. Put the blubber on the strings, or completely encase the guitar in it

ewwww

Anyway, does this guy have anything else to say...

7. 6000 square foot house is irrelevant. The contact area as a proportion of the guitars surface is relevant.

So,

No. Nothing more to say. 

Hes not wrong that the nut and bridge have a significant impact, but this is just a hick that doesnt understand what hes talking about.

I would love to have seen someone do something with some substance and sense to it. Take a few guitars and a few pickups and swap them around with dynamic and spectral analysis of a DI from the guitar. Its easily done. I could do it with all my guitars in a few hours. You would have to control picking strength and choose a wide variety of frequency distributions and modal superpositions (the physics kind, not the musical kind), and you would then, with constant gain on the DI, analyse the decay of the waveform of each sample and the frequency response. With large enough dataset for each guitar-pickup combination, if you saw no measurable difference in the fourier transforms of the DIs, and no difference in dynamic envelope (initial volume and note decay behaviour) then you would have a case.

You would still be able to argue against that case, subject to the resolution of the analysis: human ears are really very good at this stuff already, but you would at least have a starting point.

This in conjunction with a double-blind test and you might actually have a decent case. Or rather, a decent test.

But no. A hick that doesnt understand harmonic oscillators, resonance, vibration transmission or guitars.

In the mean time, until someone can make a case for or against this with some actual $%&#ing evidence, I have ears, and my ears told me the first stuff I said, and still believe.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 09:19:50 PM by MDV »

WezV

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2013, 09:19:15 PM »
do bare in mind the video on that page in not by the same guy who is doing the research.   i think its rather unfair of the site author to link them together like that

MDV

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2013, 09:20:22 PM »
do bare in mind the video on that page in not by the same guy who is doing the research.   i think its rather unfair of the site author to link them together like that

I didnt realise that.

I'd like to see the actual research - did I miss the link?

WezV

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2013, 09:23:15 PM »

So would anyone take the pepsi challenge if I record a few basic sound clips...no effects, just clean tone through a tone port ux1 with no amp models selected.

I would record three different electric guitar sound clips clips and you can try to name the wood in either the neck or the body?  without telling you the make or model of the guitar obviously... I could tell you the guage string and the pickup brand to reduce the variables... Anything else that would make the test fairer?


if its completely different guitars its hard to do objectively - unless you happen to have lots of similar guitars made from different woods.

ideally you want to have the body wood to be the only difference

WezV

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2013, 09:24:52 PM »
I didnt realise that.

I'd like to see the actual research - did I miss the link?

no, its not done yet.   sounds like a BSc  dissertation that he is a couple of weeks into with no significant differences found so far

MDV

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2013, 09:31:02 PM »
Oh well.

You have to wonder how hes going about analysing it. I guess that'll come out when it comes out.

DaveyHoran

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2013, 09:35:39 PM »
I had 3 Gibson SGs up until very recently:

1 x Ebony Neck + Mahogany Body 490/498

1 x Rosewood Neck + Mahogany Body 490/498

1 x Ebony Neck + Swamp Ash Body 496/502

the first two were indistinguishable in my opinion, both lovely... the ebony neck & swamp ash body with the 496/502 was muddy in comparison... My opinion is that it was the pickups and not the swamp ash but I guess that's the core of the grey area we've been discussing...  nothing clinical has been produced by either side clearly demonstrating the woods impact...where as BK pickups turn average guitars in to legends ;-)

To add a little comedy to this thread, check this guitar out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SohWrnzYqAk
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WezV

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2013, 09:42:09 PM »
1 x Ebony Neck + Mahogany Body 490/498

1 x Rosewood Neck + Mahogany Body 490/498

1 x Ebony Neck + Swamp Ash Body 496/502

i guess they all have mahogany necks as i dont think gibson have ever done a solid rosewood or ebony neck.

but yeah.  if you did a vid with those 3 guitars - putting the same pickups in each one, then we would be removing a lot of variables other than wood.  still quite a few left but you cant have everything

Elliot

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2013, 10:30:14 PM »
That guy with the palette guitar just proved what I always thought - neo-classical shred sounds the same no matter what guitar it is played on or who plays it  8)
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DaveyHoran

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2013, 11:27:31 PM »

Sorry, meant ebony & rosewood fret boards... but yeah, I can honestly say that from what i heard, the ebony fret-board while nicer to play on makes no difference to the tone of the SG compared to the rosewood fret board and I did listen...but when I put a set of BKs in one it made a big difference... You may have to take my word on that as my Silverburst SG now has a mule and riff raff...and I sold my Voodoo SG because of the muddy pickups.



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Kiichi

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2013, 03:11:54 AM »
I have to be honest, as many said before here themselfs, I personally think this is BS. Woods have a large effect.

I also second the longing for a more scientific study with all the things asked for here before, because even though I am sure it would not prove woods to be useless, it might still yield some interresting results.

Also MDV: Great post! I would actually like YOU to do a small study on this, we might all learn something.


Then something which has not been said yet (thoug the metal compared to rubber body pretty much did, though in a less realistic way): Let us set aside how a LP with or without a maple top sounds in comparison, or even a LP to a strat. Acording to the claims we hear here a all mahahony LP will sounds the same as an all maple hollowbody (say something like a ES175) when the hardware, strings and PUs are the same and in the same position.

Even if I had a really open mind about this I would find that hard to believe.
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AndyR

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2013, 07:55:08 AM »
Even if I had a really open mind about this I would find that hard to believe.

Yep, same here.

And GREAT post MDV :D

And I'm real glad Tim, Wez, and Twinfan are all in agreement now - my guitar world was coming apart there for a moment! :lol:
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DaveyHoran

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Re: The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2013, 10:49:39 AM »
I think what's happened is that the electric guitar evolved from an acoustic instrument that depended purely on the body/neck material for its tone, and a myth evolved that electric guitars depend just as much on the wood...but the wood may be the least important element of an electric guitar...

Wood is certainly less important to the electric  sound than intonation, tuning, pickups, working electrics, action... I'm beginning to believe that wood and body shape only play a part in the physical feel, shape, balance, weight and look of a guitar... (all important considerations when buying a guitar but not in terms of tone).

I think the lack of published research to date is shocking when you think about it...After almost a century of electric guitars, no one has proved beyond doubt that the wood makes a significant difference to tone, and instead the topic is left to speculation on a pickup forum...after almost 100 years of design and research, we are left putting forward personal impact statements.

Why dont Gibson/Fender have a page that shows "click here for mahogany tone with X pickup" "click here for basswood tone with X pickup"? etc... Pickup manufacturers like BK are able to produce distinguishable sound clips.

Taking out all speculation, we have zero evidence that wood makes a difference to tone of an electric guitar, just allot of people believing in the wood god.

I think buying a guitar is like buying a piece of art that also serves a practical function, and we tell ourselves that somehow the beauty of the instrument transcends the more modern elements.


« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 10:57:23 AM by DaveyHoran »
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