The Guitar Wood Myth - Emperors New Clothes???

[Philly Q]

Taking out all speculation, we have zero evidence that wood makes a difference to tone of an electric guitar, just allot of people believing in the wood god.

There's not zero evidence, there's the evidence of our ears!  The implication of this is that we're all idiots.

I feel comfortable saying that this seems like the God debate to me...Its like you 'don't need any evidence' to believe in something, but unless someone comes along with irrefutable scientific test based evidence gained under in extremely controlled conditions which you have personally supervised, it wont be good enough...like this dude is the first person I've heard of attempting to measure the woods effect on guitar tone and the believers out there are already to stone him.

If you're going to start about "God debates", implying we have nothing but "faith", then I'd say we're more in the position of Doubting Thomas (on the assumption that such a person ever existed) - he may not have had the benefit of endless scientific studies but it wasn't just faith, he had the evidence of his eyes and he got to touch the wounds!

[Dmoney]

Didn't Les Paul do some experiments with materials and construction? Like attaching a string to a section of railway track?

[Philly Q]

Didn't Les Paul do some experiments with materials and construction? Like attaching a string to a section of railway track?

I think that's how he originally formulated his ideas about solidbody guitars. 

Then he made "The Log" which was basically a prototype neck-through, a single chunk of wood with strings, a bridge and a pickup, with "wings" attached to the sides to make it look more guitar-shaped.

[JDC]

Surely Philly Q has enough parts under his bed that combined with MDV's scientific knowledge could produce a very controlled test for this, ie get 3 or 4 strat bodies and swap a strat neck and pickups between all guitar bodies, could even swap the hardware, even better might be to try 3 different necks on the same body

[Philly Q]

I could certainly do different necks on the same body!  Not much variety with body woods though, they're nearly all swamp ash (although some are solid and some are hollow or chambered).

[DaveyHoran]

The implication is not that you are all idiots, the implication is that you have a belief about the significance of the woods influence on a guitars tone that has not been proven and remains in the realm of speculation...a rigid belief that, when challenged, raises your defenses so much that you perceive a piece of what looks like a 'degree standard of unbiased research' as a threat which you attempt to undermine for its potential flaws rather than openly accept that the results may be valid... We all hear differently which is why simply telling people you've heard a difference between tone woods can not stand up as evidence, the same way another person simply telling people he hasn't heard a difference in tone woods will not stand up as evidence.

If this chap is doing his Thesis then he will have to define "tone" and the way in which tone is measured based on clear definitions from previous studies, including interviews with guitar players, and his tests will have to include the necessary controls and approach to stand up as proper research in the field. He cant just throw a Thesis together...(((I know because I'm right in the middle of doing a thesis on "Music Therapy" and every sentence I right has to be referenced to a previously published book or article so that none of my opinion spills in to the thesis)))

@ Philly Q - I would like to hear different necks on the same body with same strings, same pickups and totally clean amp settings, not even verb :-)   but not if its hassle for you... cheers

[Philly Q]

@ Philly Q - I would like to hear different necks on the same body with same strings, same pickups and totally clean amp settings, not even verb :-)   but not if its hassle for you... cheers

It would be massive hassle I'm afraid, as anyone who knows me will testify....  :lol:

Joking apart, even if I could get round to building these guitars and swapping necks etc, I have no way of recording the results (actually I do have - uninstalled - recording software, I think, but absolutely no idea how to use it)

[Dmoney]

Why would you even want to hear it through a clean amp? The amp is doing a lot of colouring.

When I swapped the trem block in my charvel from the little one to a large brass one I made a recording of the guitar directly into garageband totally dry. No amp, No FX. I could hear the difference between the two trem block by playing the recordings back to back. I even posted the results on here (not that I can find them right now dammit) and as I recall other people could hear a difference also, and that was from just swapping the block.

I wonder where those files went. You'd probably be interested in hearing those.

[Zaned]

The implication is not that you are all idiots, the implication is that you have a belief about the significance of the woods influence on a guitars tone that has not been proven and remains in the realm of speculation...a rigid belief that, when challenged, raises your defenses so much that you perceive a piece of what looks like a 'degree standard of unbiased research' as a threat which you attempt to undermine for its potential flaws rather than openly accept that the results may be valid..

Well, I don't feel threatened at all by this study. Nor the results :)

But it does feel somewhat like this: you go see a movie and really like it. Then someone asks you whether you liked it or not. You answer that you liked it very much, yes. Then he enquires that to prove that to him and to yourself, you would have to somehow measure your hormone levels (or whatever) to actually have evidence that you liked it. Otherwise you might not have liked it, you just imagined so.

Sort of funny, a bit frustrating maybe. But threatening..no. Setting aside beliefs, there's real scientific knowledge on what makes an (electric) guitar sound the way it does. Feline's and MDV's posts as prime examples.

What IS frustrating, is the guy on the video. He really doesn't know what he's talking about. For example, he's claiming that fretboard material doesn't make a difference, and bases his claims on the fact that the fingers don't even touch the fretboard, we should hear abalone on the next fret and blabla..well, maybe if they gave him a guitar with the fretboard made of hard rubber, he would notice that it does. And after long consideration, realize that it's not about the finger touching or not touching the fretboard, it's about what kind of material the fret is seated on.

-Zaned

[Jamie]

I have said before that I think its wrong to think of the pickup as an isolated element.  most ignore that the pickup is vibrating along with the rest of the guitar (we know this because we know microphonic pickups happen).   The pickup gets its vibrations from whatever it is connected to - ultimately the string.  but it comes via and is filtered by the bridge/nut/neck/bodywood/pickup ring/screw/springs.   

It makes sense to me that a vibrating magnetic field would sense a vibrating string differently to the way a static magnetic field would ???   I think you can hear this when direct mounting pickups- you get a much stronger body vibration straight to the pickup, and it sounds quite different to when the rings and springs are there (which still transmit vibration to the pickup)

Seems pretty logical to me. Would it be possible to mount the pickup under the strings without it being connected to the body? A comparison of that with the same pickup mounted in the body, same distance from the strings of course, would give you the differences between a vibrating pickup and a stationary one. If there is a difference then the vibrations in the body of the guitar would be the culprit? Different materials will vibrate differently, hence body material would play a part if this is the case...

[AndyR]

OK, just read the article...

"He wanted to find out why manufacturers and sellers are charging more for guitars made of "rare" woods."

He could have used his bluddy brain to figure that one out.

They are charging more for "rare" woods because "rare" wood costs more... duh!

This reported research will not even answer the question as stated in the article!!!

Pillock... (or the guy reporting it - it sounds to me that it's possibly the author of the article who's at fault here... let the poor guy do his paper, get his degree, etc)

As a guitarist, I would find the following research far more useful:

Two strats, both alder body, maple neck, rosewood board, both have had the same pickups at some point or other.

One of them I struggle to get enough top end out of it (I originally bought it because it has a nice rounded sound - but I don't always want that, I sometimes want more bite).

The other one sings like a bar-steward, cuts and bites and snarls, warbles and whispers. How do I get strat one to do that? Pickups don't do it, it's had five different sets in it. Bridge doesn't do it - changes of bridge did not change much, and they both have bridges made of the same guff now.

I'm left with three possible (drastic) changes:

Change frets
Change neck
Change body

Would be nice to know which bit to throw away, wouldn't it?

Funnily enough, play the two acoustically, not plugged in at all, and strat one sounds warm and round, not much bite. Strat two sounds bright, bouncy and cutting... and that's exactly what comes out when you plug the buggers in!! And messing with the electrics (including lots of lovely BKPs) DOES NOT CHANGE THIS DIFFERENCE between the two that I have been known to struggle with over the years. Yes, changing pickups does change the character of the individual guitar - but NOT enough to close the gap between the two guitars, never has... (much to my bitter disappointment a few years back)

I am prepared to believe it's the frets, not the woods. But that's going to be an expensive experiment that I can't afford at the moment. The bottom line, though, is I'm not prepared to change the neck or body - to me, it wouldn't be the same guitar any more.

BUT - I don't really care nowadays. I just accept them as they are and use them to their strengths... Although strat one can't do strat two, I've also realised that strat two can't do strat one. I actually want both sounds, I've just accepted I can't get both from the same guitar. I just have to make sure I'm wearing the right one. To use the wonderful analogy from earlier, when you want Paul Rodgers on a track, you wouldn't book Babs for the session, would you?

Of course, it could be the guitar straps. The mellow one has a leather strap, and the bright one a webbing strap.


I'm with Wez and others - every single bit of the system affects what comes out of it. I strongly suspect that this chap is going to do fine work and get his degree. But I also suspect he won't have access to sensitive enough equipment and controlled enough environments to be able to measure some of the variables. My suspicion is that he won't have enough data to be able to make any claims one way or the other - certainly not strong enough claims to be able to bash any guitar manufacturers (like it felt to me the author of the article wants to be able to do).

[JDC]

I could certainly do different necks on the same body!  Not much variety with body woods though, they're nearly all swamp ash (although some are solid and some are hollow or chambered).

I am rather fond of a nice bit of swamp ash, from what read (somewhere on the internet) the consistency of swamp ash is more varied than other woods although if I were to perform such a test I'd want some a cheap nasty basswood body to compare against a nice swamp ash body with maple top ala alot of custom shop guitars then I'd throw in an alder body for it's popularity and a cement body as a control

[BigB]

The implication is not that you are all idiots, the implication is that you have a belief about the significance of the woods influence on a guitars tone that has not been proven and remains in the realm of speculation... a rigid belief that, when challenged, raises your defenses so much that you perceive a piece of what looks like a 'degree standard of unbiased research'

(snip)

He didn't use his ears, he used scientific equipment so he could show fact based evidence rather than opinion

This is a highly charged topic because we've all been taught from an early age to believe that woods have a huge effect on the tone of our Electric instruments...but has anyone seen real testable evidence proving that beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Davey, sorry to have to say so but I think you're a troll - and this will be my very last contribution to this "discussion", since almost all the sensible arguments have no other effect than you coming back talking about "science", "evidence", "belief", "emotional charge", "being taught", "defense" etc - IOW seeking an emotional reaction. Hopefully this place lives up to it's reputation of a true gentlemen's club.

I suggest you try the same troll on TGP - and if you do please PM me so I can have fun too :mrgreen:

Of course, it could be the guitar straps. The mellow one has a leather strap, and the bright one a webbing strap.

And this has to be, as far as I'm concerned, the definitive answer - Thanks Mr Twinfan  8)

[DaveyHoran]

 C'mon now BigB... You talk about sensible arguments and then call me a troll because I want to see some scientific evidence that proves wood has an effect on the tone, something that's worth paying extra money for.

I find it frustrating that there is none when its needed. For my two cents (based on 18 years playing, gigging and recording using electric guitars) I know that pickups, strings and amp are the key to good tone. If the wood has any effect it is virtually redundant, and varies so much from tree to tree that describing a guitar based on the type of wood used is no use to anyone because you cant really tell how much or how little it affects the rest of the guitar...

No trolling on my part, just a search for hard evidence and complete shock that none exists.

[Twinfan]

BigB - that was Andy R, not me!

Andy R - I think you should try a whole new/different neck on Strat #1.  Frets will make little difference, same for a different body of the same wood, so the free vibrating neck would be my first thing to replace.