30 Watts loud enough?

[GuitarIv]

Hey guys,

I visited a small musicstore in my town yesterday since my bassist has been urging me to do so and it was worth it. Great service, friendly fellas and a small but well selected stock of gear.


There was an Orange Dual Terror standing around I wanted to test for ages as I'm a sucker for their tone, but never found a 2 channel amp by them that would suit me. However this baby has everything I want, and more than enough bite with a TS in front of it, I love it.

Now seeing that it "only" has 30 watts, how competetive do you guys think is it in a full band setup? I'm not going for the omgneed100watts attitude here, I just wanna know if it's worth to get that amp from a giging situation point of view.

Thanks and cheers

[TheyCallMeVolume]

It should be more than enough. I feel like anything over 15 watts and you're just going higher for more headroom. A 100w amp is only 3db louder than a 50w amp, it's just that it stays clean longer.

However, seeing the music you play I don't know if you want a low wattage head with cranked tube distortion. I'd think you'd be more after pre-amp distortion, which is something I personally would look for in a 50+ watt head because of the punch.

[BigB]

Depends on the amp _and_ cab I bet, but anyway: I'm playing a 18W (2x6V6) head thru a 4x10 marshall cab with low sensibility loudspeakers (about 95db), and even on a confortably large outdoor stage I could not turn the volume all the way up (and that was with a rather loud band).

[gwEm]

It depends a bit on how the wattage is measured. Some people claim AC30s are louder than 50w Marshalls.

But yeah, I would say 30watts is enough!

[MrBump]

Definitely enough.

[Ian Price]

Easily enough! I played with my band for a while using a 40w Fender Hot Rod Deville. I couldn't even get the volume past a quarter of the way up. I reckon you'll be fine with 30.

[richard]

It depends on the amp. My Cornford Roadhouse 30w (2 x EL34) pumps out more volume than a couple of 50w Marshalls I've used in the past (Jubilee and 2000 series). I've also got a Laney VC30 (4 x EL84) that I've never been able to get anywhere near full volume at gigs. 

I don't use 'clean' much, I'm more in the medium gain area. If you need loud pristine clean you might be better off with 50w.

[Hammerheart]

The Orange TC30 I bought yesterday is silly loud. I gave it a good cranking today while all the neighbours were (I really hope they were...) out. It got painfully loud... I would be VERY confident I could compete with a drummer.

[Telerocker]

I can't use the full potential of my Rockerverb 50 in my current band. Thirty watts is def. enough, unless you play in a wallbreaking metalband.

[38thBeatle]

I'll joing the throng and say that it should be enough. Only once in 5 years have I had to have my 30w (Laney VC30) at anything like full tilt.

[gordiji]

Easily loud enough, clean crunch or balls to the wall. I love mine & it's certainly as loud as a 50w class a/b.

[BigB]

It depends a bit on how the wattage is measured.

A watt is a watt is watt... ;)

Some people claim AC30s are louder than 50w Marshalls.

I thought anyone here would have known the difference between watts and decibels, and what "sensitivity" means when it come to loudspeakers... To make a long story short:

- loudness is measured in decibels (sound pressure), not watts (electrical power)
- decibels are log - each time you double the power, you only get 3 more db (=> +/- 10% more perceived loudness)
- a loudspeaker's sensitivity is how many decibels it produces for 1 W at one meter distance
- guitar loudspeaker's sensitivity range from (+/-) 9db to 104db

So if you know your maths: a 15W amp into a 104db loudspeaker ==  a 30W amp into a 101db loudspeaker ==  a 60W amp into a 98db loudspeaker == a 120W amp into a 95db loudspeaker.

The resulting tone might not be the same ("There are more things in heaven and earth..." <g>)  but technically speaking no one needs more than a 15watters - and yes indeed, a Vox AC30 is already quite loud.  Now depending on your favourite's speakers sensitivity, your amp's topology, OT and tubes and the kind of tones you're after you might need a 50watters to get "that" tone, but that's about the maximum OT power you'll ever need IMHO (as far as I'm concerned I just fail to see any use for anything above 25W, and that's with fairly low sensitivity loudspeakers, but YMMV).

[JJretroTONEGOD]

get a 0.5 watt amp and put it through an 8x15 cab

[GuitarIv]

Thanks for all the answers guys,

the thing is I finally need a good amp. I already talked to Toe-Knee about him building me one, I tested the Orange and I've been thinking about the EVH 5150III 50 Watt. I'm still unsure. As far as the stuff I play goes, it ranges from Sylosis (modded Marshall JCM800s and Orange Thunderverbs) over Revocation (EVH 5150III) to Decapitated (EVH as well, at least live). I'm not only in the metal department, I do play blues, funk and rock occasionally, so there's lots of stuff to consider. The Orange has the nice option of changing the values between 7, 15 and 30 watts, but then again as TheyCallMeVolume said I don't know how much the pure tube distortion will suit my styles. The EVH is awesome, though the 2 channel approach still leaves me a bit unsatisfied as I'm planning to use an Octaswitch for switching and the clean and crunch channel are packed together. The amp Toe-Knee would build would solve the switching problem, would be a strict 2 channel monster and in the SLO department, but as student I'm always on a tight budget. So I'm really considering all my options atm.

Cheers

[Dmoney]

While a watt is a watt is  a watt... I wouldn't be surprised if some companies round down their clean output power. Say you buy a 100watt head, thats just the label. If you do an actually peak power test you might get 110watt or 120watt peak clean power before the output valves go into break up.

I've played some 25-30watt heads in band situation and to be honest struggled to keep up or get the sound I wanted. Part of that issue was just the amp voicing, but I've been at that point where the output valves are distorting at the same time the preamp is full of distortion/compression. I had to dial the gain out the preamp and then it was all this weird balancing act and I was still having issues.

When I played shows, I borrowed the use of cabs a lot. So the point about speaker sensitivty becomes lost, because you might end up using any old speakers. I'd most commonly end up with cabs containing Celestion G12T-75's (97dB) or Vintage 30's (100dB). Those speakers not only have the 3dB difference in sensitivity but the frequency responese of the speaker will effect how loud the speaker appears also (since volume perception is also frequency dependant).

If you can play with your own speakers all the time and your own amp thats cool. If you know that and every gig you'll be mic'ed up and have good monitoring then fine... but when I was just touring with a head sometimes I had to get over the band in a small packed room and the only mic was on the vocals. I'm not sure I could have done that with 30watt. Would have been pushing it. Couldn't do that with my old VS100 valvestate even with every dial on 10, and I tried (in Harrow).

Also, when people say they had the master volume at 2 on a 100watt head, and it was loud... thats fair enough. But peak clean headroom is often reached when you get your dial up to 5 (12 oclock). 100watts is not at the maximum travel of the dial. SO your actual output level is a bit obscure since the dials are a reference and nowhere near a real scale.

If it was me, I'd have a think about the situations I might find myself playing in. What might be available in venues you're likely to play as I mentioned above. I'd rather have a 50watt that sounds good at low volumes for high gain stuff, than drive a 30watt head way into power valve saturation trying to be heard. But thats just me.