New tubes NEUTRAL sound Heeeeeeeeelp!!!

[souljam]

Hi guys, im new to this valve game & am currently close to pulling my hair out as what valves to go for in my Laney VC30 210, which currently has the TAD EL84 STR.

Ive done quite a bit of research & have narrowed it down to the following: Electro Harmonix EL84, or Harma E84L. Also for the preamp, Harma ECC83 STR cryo, Electro Harmonix AX7 or Mullard 12AX7/ECC83 reissue.
Do I need different tubes in the V1,2,3 positions or can I keep them all the same??

What Im looking for is a very even natural & neutral flat response across frequency range, ....no exagerated warmth or blues upper mid range poke for me thanks.

I then intend to replace the Jensen speakers to Celestion G10 Golds or Celestion G10 Vintage, which will hopefully be my icing on the cake.

Any thoughts & ideas on this would be a great help as I dont want to make an expensive mistake.

Cheeerzzz

[Plenum n Heather]

Sorry, but I think you are fighting a losing battle. First, none of your equipment is designed for a 'flat & neutral' sound. Second, we have no frame of reference. We can recommend different valves all day, but they won't make a whit of difference as we don't have your ears, your guitars, your hands, or are in your room.

ANYTHING with 'vintage' in the designation is typically NOT designed to have a flat response, but to be subjectively warm and coloured.

The most neutral 10" driver for guitar out there is probably the Eminence Ragin Cajun, not ANYTHING by Celestion.

[souljam]

Thanks for your response, very interesting!  Cheers for the speaker tip on Eminence Ragin Cajun, Ill check it out for sure.

If this helps for a point of reference Im using a Fender strat Rosewood fretboard, with Bare Knuckle Mother milk pick ups (Staggered poles in the neck, flat in the middle & an Irish Tour flat poles in the bridge ,  George L's cables (brass plugs). At the moment my main use is bedroom but I hope to be gigging again soon. Style wise I generally play Indie, P-Funk, Rock, my influences being John Squire, Prince, Hendrix, Eddie Hazel & Brian May although Im not into recreating their sound.

Im still curious to change the valves to see what difference they'll make & I think it would be good experience too. if I can get a bit more smoothness/even flat response in someway then great.

Failing that i'll sell the amp & get a Marshall DSL 40C & stick a Cellestion Vintage 30 in it, I've heard demos of this combination & like the smooth/flat tone in comparison to my Laney.

Thanks again

[JJretroTONEGOD]

If you want a more neutral sound why not try the ECC81 instead of the ECC83? they are used in Hi-fi's and have a cleaner sound, I'm using one in a fender champ and it made it sound much cleaner, I wouldn't describe it as neutral but maybe more neutral than it was before.

[souljam]

If you want a more neutral sound why not try the ECC81 instead of the ECC83? they are used in Hi-fi's and have a cleaner sound, I'm using one in a fender champ and it made it sound much cleaner, I wouldn't describe it as neutral but maybe more neutral than it was before.

Cheers fella Ill look into that. what ECC81 did you use by the way? Any recommendations?

[JJretroTONEGOD]

If you want a more neutral sound why not try the ECC81 instead of the ECC83? they are used in Hi-fi's and have a cleaner sound, I'm using one in a fender champ and it made it sound much cleaner, I wouldn't describe it as neutral but maybe more neutral than it was before.

Cheers fella Ill look into that. what ECC81 did you use by the way? Any recommendations?

I used the JJ/Tesla one, another advantage is that they are cheaper too, you can even get mullard NOS ones for a fraction of the price of a ECC83, the JJ sounds fine to my ears.

[souljam]

These are the best demo comparison Ive found on the ECC83/AX7, my favourites here are definitely the Electro Harmonix, nice & balanced.

Just trying to find some decent demos on the ECC81 now.


http://youtu.be/9AFW2-zdSyY

http://youtu.be/cGKV_xrnIxA

Has anyone had their valves Cryo treated? There suppose to improve their sound further but Ive heard mixed reports on these so Im a bit unsure about them.

[Dmoney]

I'd wouldn't be bothered about the cryo treated valves. I haven't tried them but I'm not bothered enough to pay the extra for what is most likely very little difference.

The ECC81 in the champ will make a cleaner sound because it's the only valve driving anything.
In the Laney VC30 however...

V1A = shared first stage for both channels
V1B = Second Clean stage only
V2A = Second Drive stage only
V2B = Third Drive stage only
V3A/B = Phase Inverter

Using an ECC81 in V1 will give you 60% of the gain of a ECC83 at both stages of the clean channel, and the very first stage when using the drive channel. In V2 you'll get 60% less gain at drive channels 2nd and 3rd stages, and no effect on the clean channel. In V3 you'll be driving the EL84's less, which may equate to a perceived decrease in volume at the same knob position as when using the 83.

The 81 is quite different to the 83. I personally don't like the difference created by running 81's or 82's early in the preamp, but I'm ok with them in the phase inverter in some instances. It not so much the gain reduction I don't like, more the resultant tone in the amps Ive tested it in.

I'd suggest trying something like a philips 5751 in V1. It's 70% the gain of the ECC83 and sounds very similar. It'll clean up your cleans and won't cause a huge impact in your drive channel. The JJ 5751 looks and sounds very much like the JJ ECC83S. So i don't really trust that it's a different valve. The JJ ECC83S is however a robust and pretty generic sounding valve. It's not bad sounding, just has nothing that jumps out about it. The ECC803S (it is different) sounds better but has bigger plates and is a little less robust. In combo that might be a factor.

If I was you I'd probably go with JJ ECC83S or Sovtek 12AX7LPS in V2 and V3, and maybe play about trying a 5751 (Philips maybe) a JJ ECC803S and a couple of other valves in V1.

V1 will give you the most obvious difference in tone when you swap it.

In other news, I'd avoid the DSL 40C. They are notoriously flakey.


EDIT: actually, why not get a some kind of ECC83, a 5751, and a ECC81/12AT7 and just have a play swapping them around in your amp. You should be able to do that without breaking the bank, and you'll learn a lot from it.

[souljam]

wow thank you so much for your time & advice Dmoney !!! All these details are a great help.

Would you say the JJ ECC803S has a good balance like the Electro Harmonix ECC83/AX7 ? I like what Ive heard from these so far. I think Ill stay away from the cryo game for now until I get a bit more experienced in this, just want to a good basic well balanced sound first. Interesting info on the DSL 40C, thanks for the warning.

I'll check out some more review on the valves you suggested then Im just gonna have to take the plunge.

Thanks again  :D

[Plenum n Heather]

We're going way off base in terms of the original topic, which is neutrality, so I will throw my 2 Cents in:

The JJ 803 is based off of the Telefunken ECC803. It is probably my favourite valve for V1 in a Marshall style amp; it has a warmth when pushed that many ECC83s seem to lack to my ears. It is also very close to my Old Stock Mullard ECC83's, tonally. I do not like the sound of any EHX preamp valves.

I am NOT a fan of using lower gain valves in the V1 slot; it really changes the overall voicing of the preamplifier's design. I always find that lower gain valves add a hardness/brightness to the tone that I don't find appealing.

All of that being said, you may actually want to check out a JJ 12DW7. It is an asymmetrical triode with the first half being a 12AX7. This way it does not change the overall voicing of the preamp. The other half is a 12AU7; so the overall effect is less gain, but the actual voicing of your preamp does not change ...

[Plenum n Heather]

double post

[Dmoney]

See what you can get cheap. In your amp there should be no danger swapping around the preamp valves between the types mentioned into any position. Just remember they are hot and be careful not the break them. be careful not to touch the pins as you take them out (which to be fair would be flippin hard) as then can be connected to nasty voltages that might not drain off when you switch off the amp.

I don't tend to use EH valves, probably because of some experience YEARS ago but I had some contact with them recently. It was in a Soundman MK1 and that was a pretty high gain amp. It sounded good but other factors probably make it a bad example for comparison. I've used the JJ ECC803S and ECC83S a lot and I've been happy with them. I do however have some EH 12AX7's at home, so I could do a test next time I'm home. Lots of amps come with the JJ's in from manufacturers. I have some Tungsram 12AX7's and RFT 12XA7's. The RFT in V1 seems to add some more mids. The Tungram is balanced but seems to push harder. My RFT's and Tungrams came from a couple of old Laney AOR heads. You probably don't want either of those.

I have to agree with most things Plenum n Heather has said. I just don't really think you want a 'neutral' valve. You're amp is the least liner and neutral thing ever! I just don't think you want anything with pronounced mids like the RFT or something that will have a grainy character or something. I personally think you just want something nice, for want of a better word.

As for the 12DW7, if it is half ECC83/AX7 and ECC82/AU7 then the AU7 half will have way less gain than even the ECC81. 17-20% of the 83 or something. If you put that in your V1, your drive channel would sound the same but your clean channel would loose a lot of gain in the second stage. You might end up with a level difference between channels or something. I'd be wary. That 12DW7 might be fine in something like a champ, where the input feeds the AX7 side and then the AU7 side drives the power valve.


The DSL 40C has a weak bit of circuitry that heats the preamp valves. It can overheat and die, and then your preamp valves stop working because they aren't heated. The glow is a weird thing to go off because with some preamp valves it's really hard to see the glow at all. But anyway, those DSL's have that common fault.

[souljam]

Hey guys thanks for all your feedback! Ive checked out closer on the demos & Im now swaying towards JJ (Gold pin), Phillips Jan 5751, ....very close only slight difference on the vid. Thanks for the tips

So may just get these all for the V1 position & see what sounds good & take it from there:  JJ 803 or Harma ECC83-STR, JJ Gold pin, Phillips Jan 5751, ......maybe even the electro harmonix for the V3. I'll see what Watford Valves say too.

I got the amp last year to suit a band I was in at the time, it is not what I would normally go for & Ive since left the band so Im now stuck with it ! lol So I thought if I could try to calm down/even out those dark upper mids a little then Id be happy & would be a good time for an education in the world of valves. What a headache! but hopefully will be a fruitful experiment.

This has turned into an obsession ....now I must sleeeeeeeeeeeep !

Thanks again for all your help & perspectives
Ed