Santana

[Slartibartfarst42]

I was reading a thread recently that was talking about an Abraxas set and a comment that surprised me was that the Abraxas set sounds nothing like Santana. Now I've always anticipated buying a second PRS SE Custom 24 at some point and when I get it I'd always thought I'd load it with an Abraxas set for more of a Santana sound. More specifically, I'd be looking for the earlier Santana sound when he was using a Yamaha SG as my favourite Santana album is 'Moonflower'. So, on a PRS SE Custom 24, what pickups would get me closest to the sound he had on 'Moonflower' using a Yamaha SG? The bridge tone should be just like that and the neck should be a bit of a mix between the Santana neck tone of that era and the neck tone Andy James can get from an EMG 66.

[bandmaster188]

I recently put an Abraxas set in my les Paul standard. Not because I'm a massive Santana fan (he is bloody good though) but because I'd tried one of Jonathans (feline guitars) les Paul type guitars loaded with a set. We were comparing them against a wcr filmore set which I have in another les Paul. After hearing the Abraxas set, I knew that was the sound I was after. (It did take me 2 years to get them though : :lol:)
Anyway, when I play, I don't sound much like Santana (funny that) but I do think with the right setup amp effects etc, you could quite easily pull off some very santanaesque tones with this set. Especially the neck pickup, which by the way is sublime.

[Telerocker]

Not just an Abraxas-set will make you sound like Santana. Fingers, amps, ampsettings etc, all play a role. 
I believe in his early days he played an SG2000 and Boogie amps.

[ericsabbath]

may sound counterintuitive, but Tim recommends the riff raff for early Santana, and also for Jimmy Page

[richard]

The Abraxas set is named after Santana's second album on which he played two Gibson SGs - one with P90s and one with buckers. The Yamaha SG came later. As far as the Abraxas set sounding nothing like Santana - they will probably get you in the ballpark but you'd also have to look at amps and technique if you really wanted to duplicate his tones. The Riff Raffs aren't going to make you sound like Angus unless you factor in his old Marshalls and the way he plays. Having said that, my IT bridge does sound like it's been sprinkled with essence of Rory.

[BigB]

More specifically, I'd be looking for the earlier Santana sound when he was using a Yamaha SG as my favourite Santana album is 'Moonflower'.

 
I believe in his early days he played an SG2000 and Boogie amps.

may sound counterintuitive, but Tim recommends the riff raff for early Santana, and also for Jimmy Page

Looks like there are quite a few differing definitions of "early" here  :lol:

"Early" Santana tone is mostly P90s (SG Special and LP Special)  then SG Standard and Les Paul Standard and Custom (71 to 75/76), and I can definitely see how the RR might be a good fit for this part. The Yamaha SG was next and was indeed used for "Moonflower".

Not just an Abraxas-set will make you sound like Santana. Fingers, amps, ampsettings etc, all play a role. 

One of the tricks is using lighter string and a large soft pick to have that smoooth attack  -  the real trick here being to play fast and accurately with such a setup :mrgreen:

[Slartibartfarst42]

Well, I realise I'm not going to sound just like Santana and that's down to nothing other than my complete lack of talent in comparison to the great man. However, if I were to change pickups from the stock ones (and I will) and my other CU24 is set up for more modern styles (Holydiver/Emerald) it made sense to go a little more vintage on this one. Leaving aside my lack of talent, different amp, much harder and smaller pick etc. for a while, it seemed to me that the guitar itself would present some difficulties. Because of the Moonflower connection, what I really need is a Yamaha SG but that's not going to happen simply due to a lack of funds so I'm left with the CU24. I have played a Yamaha SG before and it was incredible. It had a very distinctive sound so without doing anything to the amp, it immediately made me think of Santana. It was soft, mellow, warm and rich but with enough bite if you needed it and very articulate. It really was a gorgeous guitar. It seems to me that my CU24 will have a hell of a lot less mahogany in it than a Yamaha SG and that must make a difference, as will the lack of a trem unit on the Yamaha so I'm guessing that I'd be looking for pickups that are a bit warmer, richer and hotter than those that might be suggested if I were actually using a Yamaha. To me, that would mean that while the Riff Raff may be perfect in a big slab of mahogany, it would be too bright and too open for my PRS. My own thoughts were either an Abraxas set or maybe Crawlers and a slightly hotter and warmer option.

[BigB]

To me, that would mean that while the Riff Raff may be perfect in a big slab of mahogany, it would be too bright and too open for my PRS. My own thoughts were either an Abraxas set or maybe Crawlers and a slightly hotter and warmer option.

I have never played a PRS, but from what I've read and heard the PRS seems to be indeed a quite bright guitar. I've no experience with the Abraxas neither, they might work well for this application, but so would the Crawlers IMHO - they do wonder to fatten and warm up a bright guitar, can get some decent later (post '73) "santanesque" tones, and you may benefit from them being a bit more compressed than Abraxas (according to reviews, clips, and my experience with the Crawlers).

My 2 cents...

[Telerocker]

The Crawler excels in bolt on alder/ash guitars. I have one in my strat. It's already quite thick in that one. The mids might be a bit too much for a mahogany based guitar.  I would go Abraxas for a PRS.

[Slartibartfarst42]

Oddly enough, I asked BKP and Ben suggested a Black Dog bridge and Mule neck, which wasn't a combination I was expecting at all  :?

[Telerocker]

Oddly enough, I asked BKP and Ben suggested a Black Dog bridge and Mule neck, which wasn't a combination I was expecting at all  :?

For me that makes sense though. The BD being a tad more vintage/open then the Abraxas, but with extra centermids. The Mule-neck can produce those creamy necktones without getting muddy. Nevertheless, you can't go really wrong with an Abraxas-bridge.

[Philly Q]

Oddly enough, I asked BKP and Ben suggested a Black Dog bridge and Mule neck, which wasn't a combination I was expecting at all  :?

Sorry, I know it's totally unhelpful but that did make me laugh.  :lol:

I think we have that old dilemma here.... the pickup name is based on the general vibe of the way it sounds, but construction-wise it's nothing like the actual pickups used by the artist in question.  That said, I have absolutely no idea what the specs of those mid-'70s Yamaha pickups would be.

My other thought was: you're thinking of putting them in a PRS (SE) with a trem and Santana now plays a PRS with a trem... I wonder what the specs of his current pickups are?  I don't like his "modern" tone as much as his tone on the early albums, but he still sounds very distinctively Santana-esque. 

[Slartibartfarst42]

My other thought was: you're thinking of putting them in a PRS (SE) with a trem and Santana now plays a PRS with a trem... I wonder what the specs of his current pickups are?  I don't like his "modern" tone as much as his tone on the early albums, but he still sounds very distinctively Santana-esque.

Yes, it's odd isn't it and somewhat ironic. Much like you I think he still sounds awesome but there's something about that older tone. Having said that, this is still pretty incredible:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACdwCIld3kE

It's warm, smooth and incredibly relaxed while still being very well articulated so notes remain distinct while still giving the impression that they're falling over themselves. I've always liked Santana but this has all started coming to a head because recently I learnt 'Black Magic Woman' and 'She's Not There' for my band. They're the first Santana songs I've ever done and the style is very different from my usual mindless legato noodling but I really loved doing them and I suspect I'll be learning quite a bit more by Santana in the future and trying to incorporate that style a bit more into my own playing.

It's the open nature of the Black Dog that kinda puts me off. I've always liked a fair bit of compression which is why the EMG 66 appeals so it strikes me I need something hotter than the Black Dog. The Abraxas seems to have the extra power, everyone seems to describe it as warm, fat and fluid and its associations with the Mule can't be a bad thing. I respect what people like Ben have to say but my gut is still saying Abraxas set.

[Philly Q]

Watching that clip, I'm reminded how much I like his playing.... but also how quickly I get bored with it!  And, to be honest, how annoying I find Carlos Santana himself nowadays.... :P

Ever since someone brought a copy of Moonflower in to school way back in the '70s, I've always loved that warm, smooth, singing humbucker tone, almost more than any other guitar sound.  But if I listen to the music too much, it starts to bug me.  So I tend to just have little Santana phases, every few years.  And it's mostly the early stuff I listen to (especially Santana 3).

Anyway, back to the point, I doubt you're going to go far wrong with an Abraxas set.  Even if it doesn't give you "instant Santana", it's going to sound good.

[ericsabbath]

the black dog isn't really THAT open for bkp standards
its midrange density is what makes it more fluid and intense than the riff raff or vhii
it is just a little more open sounding than the holy diver, but the lower output makes it a little more articulate
not as open as a mule or riff raff
if you enjoyed the diver so much, you'll love the doggy