£399 for pickups?

[Dmoney]

Not at all. I actually agree with what you said earlier about finding what works for you. if that happens to be a pickups that are £400 and you don't like any other pickup on offer as much... then you're gonna have to spend £400 to get it whatever it is made of if you REALLY want it. But it's this same old boring 'diminishing returns' argument blah blah blah that has popped up here so many times, right?

We get back to the same old argument about what one person can hear over another, if they can hear a difference or if its ears playing tricks, if just thinking about it means there is new inspiration and that makes these things worth it etc etc etc etc... we've been through it all before as I'm sure you know.

That stuff is more why i was bringing up really expensive guitars... but amps is the same too...

Now i think with PRS you get what it says on the tin. i mean why wouldn't you? they have a good reputation and don't need to pretend one wood is another kind of wood. What i was really getting at is that the old wire in PAF and stuff can vary in series resistance per foot more than modern wire and the coating was different too I think and not applied in as uniform a manner. From what I was reading this morning, you just can't come by wire like that any more. Throbaks claim is they are as 'close as possible' to the original PAFs, but i guess they have to be far enough away to make the outcome repeatable which makes the process of buying old winding machines, vintage steel alloys, vintage wire, vintage material bobbins all a little bit self defeating in a way, past a certain point i guess some compromise has to be made somewhere I think. Maybe im wrong.

[Twinfan]

It's all just product placement and free market pricing - very straightforward economics.  There are loads of pickups in the world catering for all tastes and budgets.  I just don't understand why folk have to get really heated about a product they don't want to buy, or can't afford to buy.

I drive a Skoda Octavia vRS and would love a Porsche 911 GT3, but I can't afford one.  I don't feel the need to moan about people who own one though!

Funny old world innit?

[Philly Q]

And I come back to my oft-repeated argument that everybody has their own "thing" that they will happily spend money on, whether it's good "value" or not.

Personally I'm shocked at the amount of money many people spend on mobile phones, or clothes, or watches, or football kits, or holidays...... but I will cheerfully fork out £300 for a bit of maple with some frets stuck in it, without a moment's thought.  We can't be rational all the time.

[Dmoney]

It's all just product placement and free market pricing - very straightforward economics.  There are loads of pickups in the world catering for all tastes and budgets.  I just don't understand why folk have to get really heated about a product they don't want to buy, or can't afford to buy.

I drive a Skoda Octavia vRS and would love a Porsche 911 GT3, but I can't afford one.  I don't feel the need to moan about people who own one though!

Funny old world innit?

Nobody is moaning about people that own stuff.

[Cam_H]

It's funny because haters, 9 times out of 10, tend to be people who want the product, but are jealous because they can't afford it for themselves, or don't want to put the effort in. They expect to see immediate results with minimum work.

I have a mate, and when I started weighlifting a couple years back, he referred to the fact that the only reason I gained muscle was because I was taking "Protein Shakes" which he said is cheating like taking steroids - Pffft. So I carried on weightlifting and eating purely food with no supplements and his next comeback was "it's only because you can afford to eat healthy food". I showed him my shopping list for the week/month and he actually spends more from his Dole money on weed and booze. Apparantly then I needed to get a life.

The fact of the matter being, he's a lazy bum who spends all day on video games, eating biscuits and expecting to get buff off lifting 5kg Dumbells for 5mins a day in his room. Because I put effort in, earn a living, and train hard; every way I achieve it, unless it's his way, is wrong.

It's was the same deal when I traded my Xbox360 for a PS3. He said why am I getting one of those coz they're s**t compared to XBoxs. A few months later when he got one, it was suddenly the best thing in the world!

He's been on dole since 2006. What does that tell you? lol

[Toe-Knee]

It's funny because haters, 9 times out of 10, tend to be people who want the product, but are jealous because they can't afford it for themselves, or don't want to put the effort in. They expect to see immediate results with minimum work.

I have a mate, and when I started weighlifting a couple years back, he referred to the fact that the only reason I gained muscle was because I was taking "Protein Shakes" which he said is cheating like taking steroids - Pffft. So I carried on weightlifting and eating purely food with no supplements and his next comeback was "it's only because you can afford to eat healthy food". I showed him my shopping list for the week/month and he actually spends more from his Dole money on weed and booze. Apparantly then I needed to get a life.

The fact of the matter being, he's a lazy bum who spends all day on video games, eating biscuits and expecting to get buff off lifting 5kg Dumbells for 5mins a day in his room. Because I put effort in, earn a living, and train hard; every way I achieve it, unless it's his way, is wrong.

It's was the same deal when I traded my Xbox360 for a PS3. He said why am I getting one of those coz they're s**t compared to XBoxs. A few months later when he got one, it was suddenly the best thing in the world!

He's been on dole since 2006. What does that tell you? lol

That your friend is a bum?

[MDV]

It's funny because haters, 9 times out of 10, tend to be people who want the product, but are jealous because they can't afford it for themselves, or don't want to put the effort in. They expect to see immediate results with minimum work.

I have a mate, and when I started weighlifting a couple years back, he referred to the fact that the only reason I gained muscle was because I was taking "Protein Shakes" which he said is cheating like taking steroids - Pffft. So I carried on weightlifting and eating purely food with no supplements and his next comeback was "it's only because you can afford to eat healthy food". I showed him my shopping list for the week/month and he actually spends more from his Dole money on weed and booze. Apparantly then I needed to get a life.

The fact of the matter being, he's a lazy bum who spends all day on video games, eating biscuits and expecting to get buff off lifting 5kg Dumbells for 5mins a day in his room. Because I put effort in, earn a living, and train hard; every way I achieve it, unless it's his way, is wrong.

It's was the same deal when I traded my Xbox360 for a PS3. He said why am I getting one of those coz they're s**t compared to XBoxs. A few months later when he got one, it was suddenly the best thing in the world!

He's been on dole since 2006. What does that tell you? lol

You dislike your 'friend' enough to use him as a statistic of 1 to make a rhetorical point on a guitar forum about things completely unrelated to his behaviour?

[Cam_H]

That your friend is a bum?
[/quote]

Yup. I don't really even speak to him anymore tbh. Was a bit off the subject for £399 for pickups, which I still think is a bit high. But my point was I have my opinions about price, but I would never slate somebody else just because they bought them, and then act like they're the best under the sun if I finally chose to bought them. I see people like this all over forums. Everyone man to their own :)

[Cam_H]

You dislike your 'friend' enough to use him as a statistic of 1 to make a rhetorical point on a guitar forum about things completely unrelated to his behaviour?
[/quote]

My point was you find jealous people who think products are bad because they're not fortunate enough to have them. I think "friend" mightve been too strong of a word. He's a guy I know who I know through a friend. But again every man to their own. I've always played cheap equipment, unable to afford high end stuff. But I'd never turn round and tell someone they're wrong because they have better.

My point with that guy is that'd be like telling Slash the only reason he sounds good on guitar is because he has a guitar worth thousands and an amp to follow. But as soon as he turns round and plays something cheaper and still sounds great, people still find excuses.

[MDV]

And products that cost twice what products that are ostensibly the same and already in a high price bracket, what about them?

Is that just jealously, or is that you assuming that more expensive is automatically better and there is some sort of pride in socio-economic status (or shame) component to gear purchases?

[Cam_H]

And products that cost twice what products that are ostensibly the same and already in a high price bracket, what about them?

Is that just jealously, or is that you assuming that more expensive is automatically better and there is some sort of pride in socio-economic status (or shame) component to gear purchases?

I was asking are they really worth £399? Or are there other pickups out there that sound close enough not to tell. How do I know, I've never owned a set, nevermind played them. I just wanted a bit more info as I've heard companies making PAFs to the original specification for a cheaper. Does asking if £399 sounds like it's a bit expensive seem like I'm making a jealous comment? I know naff all about pickups, I just wanted a bit more information from people who may know a bit more on the subject.

It is neither jealousy nor assuming expensive is better. I played an LTD-EC1000 (£799), an ESP Eclipse (£1499) and a Gibson Les Paul Custom (£2899) and I preffered the ESP Eclipse. That is neither preferring the expensive Gibson because I think expensive is better, neither am I saying the LTD is better because I'm jealous of people who are fortunate enough to own an ESP and all I'm stuck with is the cheapest.

[Cam_H]

I do what I want to do, buy what I want to buy, like what I like, dislike what I dislike. But I would never call something cheap because I can afford more, neither call something a rip off because I can't afford it.

After some very good responses on this forum and some extra research, I've learnt that thos pickups would be well worth the money to a traditionalist who is maybe building a '59 Les Paul replica and want's it as close as possible. But to me it's not my cup of tea. But it's best to enter things with an open mind, I say. I entered this thread wondering why on earth the pickups was so high, and wondered what justified them being that much as I've only learnt about actual PAF pickups the last couple days. Same way someone could ask why on earth would you spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on an authentic 59 Les Paul. You enter the discussion wanting to learn why, rather than dismissing the idea completely and calling everyone wrong for something which you purely didn't take the time to learn about.

I do apologise if it came off the wrong way with the interpretation of the story with the guy I knew. It may have been a bad way to put it, I was just trying to make a point (in a very bad way obviously lol).

[Twinfan]

And products that cost twice what products that are ostensibly the same and already in a high price bracket, what about them?

I say they might be better, might be worse, but probably they're just different.  Price isn't a factor in that, but for someone's interpretation of worth it is.  I'd pay twice as much for something that I thought was better.

[Dmoney]

This is the thing I don't fully understand.

After learning about these pickups I found a thread where the the dude who makes these pickups was explaining the nuances of the winding machine he bought that was used to wind the original pickups and the process that was originally used to make them. Turn out, its very inconsistent. Add to that inconsistencies in the steel used in the original PAFs, the inconsistencies in the magnets, the over tension on the winder that would cause bobbins to eventually warp (inconsistently), not having a wind counter on the machine (the guy who bought it at Throbak fitted a counter himself), inconsistent wire in terms of alloy and coating compared modern wire, which means more variable ohms per foot and more variable capacitance between wires once wound together and probably loads more stuff, and a workforce that would make mistakes when setting up the machine to make PAFs after making other pickups... and this is what is described by the guy making the £399 pickups and some other guy who is into magnets... means that the spectrum of tone and physical properties of vintage PAF's must be pretty flippin' wide if what they are saying is true. I've also read people saying there is no single PAF tone, that each PAF sounds a bit different, and that makes total sense. Original PAFs don't cost loads because they are the holy grail of pickups, it's driven by all kinds of factors. Same as the price for 59 LP's isn't driven by quality of the tone each one produces. A bunch of early strats are meant to be pretty bad guitars due to manufacturing processes at the time, but it doesn't stop them costing a lot of money or having a certain status as instruments, and if I paid a lot of money for one, would I really tell people it plays like junk?

in fact here is the thread
http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/pickups/2527-paf-mysteries-leesona-102-winder.html

So essentially, as far as I can make out any decent pickup that claims to be a PAF replica is probably going to be pretty close tone wise to some kind of old PAF somewhere. No doubt the dude has put the work in and clearly is dedicated to what he's doing though. There has to be a reference point and compromise though which I'm sure Throbak has decided on. Because if he was making pickups with all the original materials on the original machine, how could he have a consistent product to sell by his own admission that the characteristics of the original materials are so diverse? If you wanted to buy the pups you'd be paying £399 for MORE vintage materials and MORE vintage methods of construction but the tonal outcome would potentially be down to luck to a certain degree right? I think that makes sense.

Maybe I'm over thinking it.

(that thread is a good read by the way).

[Cam_H]

Well from my research - correct me if I'm wrong -

Dimarzio seem to mention the PAFS were Alnico II and they use Air Technology and Alnico V to achieve that tone. This resulting in the Air Classics.

Duncan seem to think Alnico V judging by the 59 - this I'm not familiar with whether these are PAF clones, though.

BKP seem to think Alnico IV, and Tim said it was from an actual PAF he took apart. Same as Dimarzio did.

And these £399 pickups are Alnico III.

This to me pretty much says that there is no "One that rules them all". Or is there?  8) Lord of the Ring moment there. But it seems to show all the PAFs varied to a great deal of degree, which makes me wonder where the "Patent Applied For" came from. Was this for the actual design of the pickup (which would mean there is one to rule them all), or just for the patent of a microphone for the guitars regardless of materials?