£399 for pickups?

[MDV]

All of them could be right.

They probably just used whatever materials were cheapest at the time. It may be that that varied.

[Cam_H]

All of them could be right.

They probably just used whatever materials were cheapest at the time. It may be that that varied.

So do you think it was just the fact it was a guitar pickup of that particular style/look that they applied a Patent for? Rather than patenting the technology and parts used to create the actual pickup?

[MDV]

The patent filing was for humbucking, which has nothing to do with look or magnet type.

[Cam_H]

The patent filing was for humbucking, which has nothing to do with look or magnet type.

Ahh. Well that clears up a lot of things I was wondering about. Cheers for that bit of info. Never even crossed my mind about the humbucking

[Cam_H]

Just found this interesting bit of info on Wiki. But you were right in what you were saying about the humbucker. It just seems the PAFs were the second humbucker, but got there first to file for the patent.

P.A.F. or just PAF is the world's second humbucker guitar pickup, invented by Seth Lover in 1955 as an engineer for Gibson and began use in mass production guitars in 1957. It is commonly mistaken for the first humbucker pickup due to Gibson's popularity and the earlier patent filing date. While the first humbucker pickup in use, and issued a patent, was actually the Gretsch Filter'Tron pickup prototypes, designed by Ray Butts in 1954 at the request of Chet Atkins for his Gretsch 6120 (1955 introduction)

[Dmoney]

Interesting. When i was reading that other thread and talking about varying magnets, I just thought maybe it was the same magnetic material but different strengths or something. Didn't consider it being A2, A3, A4, A5 and so on but I guess the number designation indicates a magnetic field strength and mixture of Aluminium, Nickel and Cobalt . Like MDV says, maybe it is that varied because they just used whatever they could get.

[Cam_H]

Interesting. When i was reading that other thread and talking about varying magnets, I just thought maybe it was the same magnetic material but different strengths or something. Didn't consider it being A2, A3, A4, A5 and so on but I guess the number designation indicates a magnetic field strength and mixture of Aluminium, Nickel and Cobalt . Like MDV says, maybe it is that varied because they just used whatever they could get.

Well it says further on on Wiki's PAF page that Gibson placed a gigantic order for Alnico IV magnets, so maybe that's Tim's logic to try and create the best ones that they made. Or at least his opinion on what he thought the best of the PAFS were after talking to Seth Lover.

Gibson used Alnico magnets in PAFs, the same magnet as used in the P-90. Alnico has several different grades and different magnetic properties (grades 2, 3, 4 and 5 are usually used), and Gibson assigned them quite randomly until the end of the era of early PAFs. The most common of these was Alnico IV. British pickup designer Tim Mills of Bare Knuckle pickups had spoken with Seth Lover, who revealed that the most commonly used magnet was the Alnico IV. It has also been discovered from order sheets, that Gibson ordered many Alnico IV magnets

[MDV]

So, 'Maximum Vintage' closestyoucaneverget throw backs are in fact less accurate on the whole (bearing in mind the random nature of pafs) than BKs.

I'm not surprised

Presumably the price difference is due to overheads incurred by making wire spun from Les Pauls molten toe nails.

Quite a premium on that stuff.

[Twinfan]

So, 'Maximum Vintage' closestyoucaneverget throw backs are in fact less accurate on the whole (bearing in mind the random nature of pafs) than BKs.

How did you work that out?  How can they be less accurate when there's no single reference source?

I personally don't believe that AIV was the most common magnet used.  From all the things I've read over the years it was AII.

[blue]

If you look at the Bareknuckle range, the Stormy Monday (AII), Mule (AIV), Riff Raff (AV) and Black Dog (AV), are all PAF type pickups, all based on original Gibson humbuckers.  So the whole range of possibilities is there. 

Gibson's own PAF recreations, notably the '57 classics, Burstbucker and the new Custom Bucker in the Historics, all use Alnico II.

There is no single, exact PAF to copy, they did vary greatly.  Each designer goes for what he sees as the right sound.  So whichever one happens to be closest to your own idea of what it should sound like is right.

Notably, Tim's recent anniversary pickups were PAF type, and he used Alnico II in those.

[Cam_H]

So, 'Maximum Vintage' closestyoucaneverget throw backs are in fact less accurate on the whole (bearing in mind the random nature of pafs) than BKs.

How did you work that out?  How can they be less accurate when there's no single reference source?

I personally don't believe that AIV was the most common magnet used.  From all the things I've read over the years it was AII.

Well Tim got it straight from the horses mouth (Seth Lover). But again this was him only saying IV was the most common used. But there was many other magnets used of course. I guess we'll just have to pick a pickup and decide if we like it.

[gwEm]

So, 'Maximum Vintage' closestyoucaneverget throw backs are in fact less accurate on the whole (bearing in mind the random nature of pafs) than BKs.

How did you work that out?  How can they be less accurate when there's no single reference source?

I personally don't believe that AIV was the most common magnet used.  From all the things I've read over the years it was AII.

Well Tim got it straight from the horses mouth (Seth Lover). But again this was him only saying IV was the most common used. But there was many other magnets used of course. I guess we'll just have to pick a pickup and decide if we like it.

I assume Tim heard that, then made an A4 PAF style pickup to experiment, liked what he heard and then proceeded to optimise the wind.

---

Fact is, pickups are a great way to change the tone of an instrument to something closer to the sound the musician is looking for. They improve the sound of a cheaper guitar, and can fix tonal issues - too bright/dark/weak. It's great to have such a wide range of alternatives available!

400 seems alot, I would hope that's for a set of neck and bridge though. Assuming that, then I would say they are in a reasonable price range. Not that I would pay that though, but I can see why people would do so.

[richard]

I wouldn't pay that kind of money for pickups, but then again many people seem quite happy to pay hundreds of pounds for flavour-of-the-month boutique pedals which - it seems to me - are a far less fundamental part of their tone than their guitar's pickups.

If you paid £399 for a set of pickups and they were the best you'd ever heard I wouldn't consider that too much to pay. It's pointless to argue that they aren't worth it on the basis of the cost of the raw materials. How much are the components of a vintage Plexi worth ? People are prepared to pay many thousands for a new guitar - are they worth it ? Personally, when I'm playing in my band and we're all making our usual high volume racket I doubt that my ears would be good enough to detect a difference in quality between a Mule and a Throbak.

[Toe-Knee]

How much are the components of a vintage Plexi worth ? People are prepared to pay many thousands for a new guitar - are they worth it ?

Well if you are asking that based on todays prices the parts cost far more than the current reissues if you are doing it vintage correct.

[Elliot]

The point about alnico is that the all modern companies are right - in early 1950s people like Gibson or Fender bought a generic magnet called alnico - and post war/cold war shortages meant that you wouldn't always get the same magnet.  Take alnico III, - due to the cobalt shortage in the USA in the 50s it contains on cobalt ('co'), but it was still labelled alnico. 

Its no use knocking Throbak - they make a good product - I have dealt with Jon Gundry a few times and he is a decent guy to deal with.  He has the original Gibson winders and, more than that, has done his research on the pattern those machines wound good PAFs in the 50s.  He is selling that knowledge and that exclusivity.  Its like the Telenator Cunife Wide Range humbuckers at $450 each.  That is astoundingly expensive for a CBS era Fender style pickup that no-one liked at the time - but Telenator worked out how to properly use cunife to make accurate 70s WRHB's - and, given that you can't get Cunife elsewhere, they have a unique selling point. 

That's business - if it is too expensive, or not worth it, don't buy it - there are a million pickups on the market.