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Author Topic: Pedal order (signal chain)  (Read 16408 times)

Dave Sloven

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Pedal order (signal chain)
« on: October 03, 2013, 03:00:16 PM »
This is a question you often see around the internet, but I haven't seen any definitive answers. I am experimenting with the order of my pedals while my pedal board is expanding, so I have now taken everything off the board and just laid it all on the floor for ease of moving things around.  People try to explain why they put this in front of that etc and there seem to be some technical arguments involved, but for the most part it's 'what sounds good to you'.  That said it is really groping in the dark as not only am I dealing with moving pedals around but also in some cases I am learning how pedals interact with one another but also how to use that effect at all, so I'd appreciate your reflections.

At the moment my pedals look a bit like spaghetti and meatballs.



Order in the photo:

Guitar> Tuner (TC Polytune) > Noise Reduction (ISP Decimator G-String) > Line Driver (MXR CAE 401) > Wah (Crybaby From Hell) > Compressor (MXR Custom Comp) > Overdrive (Maxon OD-9) > Distortion (Mooer Dark Secret) > Amp (Peavey 6534+) > Noise Reduction (ISP Decimator G-String) > Equalizer (MXR 10-band EQ) > Amp (Peavey 6534+) > 4 x 12" Speaker Cabinet (Orange PPC412 - 4 x Celestion V30).

Anticipated order once the last three pedals arrive and the other EQ is repaired (indicated in CAPITALS):

Guitar> Tuner (TC Polytune) > Noise Reduction (ISP Decimator G-String) > Line Driver (MXR CAE 401) > PHASER (MXR EVH Phase 90) > Wah (Crybaby From Hell) > Compressor (MXR Custom Comp) > Overdrive (Maxon OD-9) > EQUALIZER/BOOST (MXR 6-band EQ) > Distortion (Mooer Dark Secret) > Amp (Peavey 6534+) > Noise Reduction (ISP Decimator G-String) > Equalizer (MXR 10-band EQ) > CHORUS (MXR Black Label Chorus) > DELAY (MXR Carbon Copy) > Amp (Peavey 6534+) > 4 x 12" Speaker Cabinet (Orange PPC412 - 4 x Celestion V30).

The 6-band EQ and distortion pedals will only be used for noisy leads (dive bombs etc), so I am thinking that I would put the EQ before the pedal to boost the signal into the pedal (is this silly?). The other pedals I'm thinking might be problematic in terms of order are the phaser, wah, and compressor.  The MXR CAE 401 is being used as a linedriver only (on 18V) to give a strong signal into the phaser and wah.

Any ideas most welcome.

The Custom Comp created a huge amount of noise when I first tried this set-up, btw. I didn't realize it was on and that it was also maxed out and I couldn't work out why everything sounded so noisey.  I reduced the amount of compression and everything started to improve.  I really have very little idea as to how to use a compressor, so any hints on that would also be helpful.

EDIT: Believe it or not, tinypic kept generating a file name for my photo with the f-word in it, which of course comes up as '$%&#' and then it couldn't find my photo!  WTF?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 03:11:42 PM by Agent Orange »
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juansolo

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 04:37:32 PM »
The simplest answer is whichever way around it sounds best to you. But generally, old fuzzes, some wahs and compression could do with being at the front and anything doing delay/modulation/reverb and the like wants to be at the end with distortions/fuzzes and boosts in between.

Sometimes delay/mod/reverb will work better in a loop if you've got one. Likewise noise gates want to be after the noisy stuff and before the modulation. So if you've a loop I'd put it as the first thing in the loop (so it deals with any pre-amp noise also) with the delay/mod/reverb after it. All of which can go completely out of the window if something sounds better where it 'shouldn't' be or your pedals sound shitety in the loop. ;)

Suck it and see.
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bucketshred

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 05:17:22 PM »
Plug them in and let rip ;)

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xXNicFlairXx

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2013, 05:19:33 PM »
After years placing my compressor first i've recently started using my compressor after my distortion with a boost after. This gives a nice transition when going from clean to dirty keeping the volumes farely level and then i can stomp on the boost when i need more volume.

dave_mc

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 05:50:42 PM »
The simplest answer is whichever way around it sounds best to you. But generally, old fuzzes, some wahs and compression could do with being at the front and anything doing delay/modulation/reverb and the like wants to be at the end with distortions/fuzzes and boosts in between.

Sometimes delay/mod/reverb will work better in a loop if you've got one. Likewise noise gates want to be after the noisy stuff and before the modulation. So if you've a loop I'd put it as the first thing in the loop (so it deals with any pre-amp noise also) with the delay/mod/reverb after it. All of which can go completely out of the window if something sounds better where it 'shouldn't' be or your pedals sound shiteety in the loop. ;)

Suck it and see.

+1

there are some rules of thumb (as you mentioned) which can help stop you from flailing around aimlessly in the dark, but all of those rules go out the window if you find a placement which just happens to work better for you.

Telerocker

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2013, 06:34:21 PM »
The simplest answer is whichever way around it sounds best to you. But generally, old fuzzes, some wahs and compression could do with being at the front and anything doing delay/modulation/reverb and the like wants to be at the end with distortions/fuzzes and boosts in between.

Sometimes delay/mod/reverb will work better in a loop if you've got one. Likewise noise gates want to be after the noisy stuff and before the modulation. So if you've a loop I'd put it as the first thing in the loop (so it deals with any pre-amp noise also) with the delay/mod/reverb after it. All of which can go completely out of the window if something sounds better where it 'shouldn't' be or your pedals sound shiteeeety in the loop. ;)

Suck it and see.

+1

there are some rules of thumb (as you mentioned) which can help stop you from flailing around aimlessly in the dark, but all of those rules go out the window if you find a placement which just happens to work better for you.

+1 too. I like to keep my boost after the overdrive, so I can enhance the tone if necessary. I like my wah upfront, but some like it better after the OD/dist.pedals.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 12:30:02 AM by Telerocker »
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juansolo

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 08:39:16 PM »
Boosts tend to work better after OD & Fuzz. As as a lot of them clip the cr@p out of the signal and a boost on the front can exaggerate that, whereas after it can thicken the distortion that's already taken place. I find a SHO works really well after fuzzes for example. You've just gotta try it.
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Dave Sloven

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2013, 12:15:53 AM »
I've only been using the boost pedal as a linedriver at this point, and to be honest it doesn't seem to be making an audible difference in that role.  Where I thought it might come in handy is if I have the phaser in front of the wah, but I haven't received the phaser in the mail yet. Apparently phasers - or at least these MXR ones - can be real tone killers at the front of a chain of effects without a buffer of some kind at the front.  Hence it is set at zero boost, and just idles there.  If it still makes no effect when I have the phaser there I will move it to either last in line before the amp or last in line in the effects loop.

Yes I do have an effects loop and the G-String is in there after the MXR 10-band EQ, with the chorus and delay likely to go after it in that order (and the boost after them if it ends up in the loop).

The 6-band EQ will most likely be used only for leads and for that reason will physically be placed on the board next to the Mooer Dark Secret, so that I can kick them in together. The chorus will be placed near them for the same reason, as will the phaser. Where they fit in the signal chain is of course a completely different matter.  Other pedals can sit further back on the board.  I also have the Peavey footswitch mounted on my board so as to protect the connector on the back, which is easily damaged.  Like the pedals just mentioned it will be placed along the leading edge of the board as the channel and crunch switches are something I use fairly often in the middle of a song.  The wah goes on the far right.

I've placed the tuner and the front end of the G-String at the front of the signal chain because they both depend on a clean signal coming in. The tuner is digital but it is pure bypass and cuts out all the other stuff when it is on.  It is not used on the fly so it is okay to go at the top of the board and that also allows me to run the guitar lead in more easily from the right (I am right-handed). The G-String is up there too because it is always on.  Some of the pedals are difficult to step over - such as the Maxon OD-9 and the G-String - so I don't have anything behind them and they go as far back on the board as possible.  I rarely turn off the Maxon and as it is quite high I can step on it easily when it is behind the other pedals.

In the chain the dirt seems best after the wah, and probably after the phaser, although some people treat the phaser in the same way as a flanger, and put it in the loop.  I will try both ways.  I'm not sure if the wah should be before or after the phaser if the phaser is up front.  To be honest I kind of doubt that I will use both pedals at once, so it might not matter much.  My wah is buffered so it might be good to put the wah after it.  The G-String also acts as a buffer I think.  The tuner doesn't.

The main thing that puzzles me is the compressor.  The thing sounded like complete shitee with dirt on when I first used it last night, even though it is meant to be one of the best compressors out there.  I got some decent sounds out of it with cleans, but to be honest I prefer more open cleans.  Maybe if I were playing banjo rolls or something on my guitar I would find it more useful.  When I played it with dirt and fiddled with the knobs some (i.e., backed things off to make it more subtle) I found that it thickened up the notes a lot.  It sounded kind of awful with chords but I suspect that it could be great for single note stuff, especially higher up the neck.  So it might end up in the tap dance section of my board.  I will also try it after the distortion pedals to see if that improves things

Thanks everyone for your comments.  I will keep experimenting as pedals arrive and I find time.

I can't imagine that I will need more pedals than I have now or have coming.  I seem to have one of most things.  A lot of people have no more than a noise gate and a delay, and see the others as superfluous.  I can definitely see how certain effects, such as wahs and phasers, are only occasional toys





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Dave Sloven

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2013, 11:50:51 AM »
Quick test tonight, with Custom Comp placement, both through Lead (High Gain) and Rhythm (Clean) channels on my 6534+ ...

Comp before OD-9 & Black Secret (i.e., dirt pedals) = good clean, horrible dirty
Comp after dirt = clean same, dirty sounds much better, notes sing as opposed to sounding squished

I then thought maybe I should move the comp from the front end into the front of the loop, i.e., after all the gain stages in the preamp as well as the dirt pedals.  First of all I noticed that the comp acted like a huge boost, having to be turned down to 10 o'clock to avoid this problem.  Once down there it worked okay, but no better than in the front end and I lost the ability to increase compression unless I wanted a boost.

So that pedal will stay after the dirt pedals.

The other big question mark is the phaser.  When that arrives I will try it in various positions.  It seems like I have solved the riddle of where to place the comp though.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 11:59:28 AM by Agent Orange »
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dave_mc

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2013, 05:37:38 PM »
yeah phaser pretty much depends on what you want. if you put it after the dirt it accentuates the phasing, which can be too much for some things.

Dave Sloven

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2013, 12:43:05 PM »
Thanks everyone for your comments here.

In the end the best method was just to play in every possible placement for the three pedals that were concerning me - the phaser, the wah, and the boost.

I won't go through all of the permutations but there was a big difference with phaser before or after dirt, and I settled on after the overdrive and distortion on my board but before the preamp distortion.  I tried it in the loop but it was too extreme with the lead channel.  Sounded like some cheesy movie spacecraft effect.

This is the order I settled on (modified from above):

Guitar> Wah (Crybaby From Hell) > Tuner (TC Polytune) > Noise Reduction (ISP Decimator G-String) > Equalizer (MXR 6-band EQ) > Phaser (MXR EVH Phase 90) > Overdrive (Maxon OD-9) >  Distortion (Mooer Dark Secret) > Compressor (MXR Custom Comp) > Amp (Peavey 6534+) > Noise Reduction (ISP Decimator G-String) > Equalizer (MXR 10-band EQ) > Chorus (MXR Black Label Chorus) > Delay (MXR Carbon Copy) > Boost (MXR CAE 401) > Amp (Peavey 6534+) > 4 x 12" Speaker Cabinet (Orange PPC412 - 4 x Celestion V30).



This is what seems to me to be the most practical arrangement on the board.  I still have to get that MXR 6-band EQ fixed ... I have the parts but not the skills!


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darkbluemurder

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2013, 05:18:30 PM »
This is a question you often see around the internet, but I haven't seen any definitive answers.

Well - that's because there is no definite answer.

  People try to explain why they put this in front of that etc and there seem to be some technical arguments involved, but for the most part it's 'what sounds good to you'. 

Exactly. Experiment, trust your ears, and enjoy.

Cheers Stephan

scorchio65

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 05:53:07 PM »
I tried my chorus after my reverb - which usually comes right at the end - and now prefer it there  (seems to have a more dramatic effect)

Got that from a recent  Don Felder interview who explained why.


Dave Sloven

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 12:24:09 AM »
Interesting ... I haven't got a reverb. For my purposes a delay is sufficient.

If I want to play surf music I will get a Peavey Delta Blues or similar amp with a spring reverb in it. My amp would be rubbish for that style anyway.
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Dave Sloven

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Re: Pedal order (signal chain)
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 03:01:57 PM »
I finally got it all set up tonight, after the 6-band EQ was fixed.

Thought it was all perfect, plugged it in, then BAMM!!  A  wall of noise.

Finally isolated the sources of the problem:

Chorus generates a little bit of noise if the high is turned up too far.
Phaser makes a small amount of whoosing sound even when all seems quiet otherwise,  but not too bad
Mooer Black Secret distortion was the real culprit!  Another useless distortion pedal :-/

So it has been removed and all seems okay now.  Here's a couple of photos before and after the Black Secret was removed

BEFORE:


AFTER:


EDIT: Eventually it was all moved around again, and the distortion removed.  An EVH Flanger will be put on the board instead.  I have drawn the signal chain on this photo (badly, with Paintbrush for Mac), just for fun

« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 12:54:52 PM by Agent Orange »
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