2002 LP Standard Pickups. (Rebel Yells currently)

[Yellowjacket]

So, here's the deal.  The Rebel Yells were a fantastic upgrade from the Burstbucker Pros that came stock and they are great overall.  The problem is not with the pickups, but with the guitar itself.  Gibson needs to use all their mahogany so the production instruments are weight relieved i.e. swiss cheese instruments.  With light mahogany like what comes in the custom shop instruments, the tonal response is even and balanced between pickups but with the extremely dense / heavy wood, the neck pickup is, by default, a ball of mud while the bridge one is thin and trebly. 

The Rebel Yells corrected the problem with the stock pickups somewhat but I like to do a lot of low / medium gain playing  (Think more classic rock and lighter stuff) in addition to metal.  I love to switch between neck and bridge and it sucks when the tone goes from ideal / a bit bassy to thin.   I have the neck pickup set quite far from the strings (Pole pieces out) and the bridge pickup is really close (Pole pieces down), trying to get as phat a tone as I can from the bridge and as light / bright as I can from the neck. 
To describe my style, I use the neck for dynamic tones going from clean / slight breakup to gnarly rhythm stuff as well as high gain soloing.  I generally use the bridge for heavier / more focused rhythm tones.  I like the classically voiced marshall crunch as well as a more modern metal rhythm.  (Mesa Boogie Electra Dyne / Dual Rectifier) 

What I like about the Rebel Yells:  I like the wide, clear, and thick crunch tone on the bridge pickup as well as the low / medium gain tones with the neck.  The neck has a fantastic and very expressive lead tone where the harmonics just jump out like crazy.  The wide pick attack adds a lot of definition and expression to my playing.

I'm wondering if going with a Riff Raff / Emerald in the neck and a Nailbomb in the bridge would help compensate for the dodgy guitar construction?  Maybe even sticking with a Rebel Yell in the neck and putting a Nailbomb in the Bridge would suffice? As much as I like my lester, I'm frustrated by this obvious tonal imbalance inherent in the instrument design.  The idea here is to not depart terribly far from the voice of the Rebel Yells but to get deeper lows and slightly more output in the bridge as well as something with less bass in the neck, but with the same lively harmonics.   I want to be able to switch between pickups and not have to re-EQ the amp to compensate for the tonal shift that happens in the bass.

The Rebel Yells are great pickups and I think they'd work exceptionally well in a custom shop lester or something with higher quality tonewoods.  I'm just trying to work with a less than stellar piece of wood here.  The guitar plays great but it's a shame that the electronics have to compensate for corners cut on the part of Gibson. 

[Telerocker]

Maybe you can correct things with different potvalues and capacitors. If not you could balance things with a Black Dog-bridge and RiffRaff-neck.

[Yellowjacket]

Uggh.  I really think it's the amplifier / cab which are enhancing the low end balance issues.  Mesa amps have this extended low range which is really cool except that it can become so terribly problematic.  To be perfectly clear I simply want a bit less bottom from the neck pickup and a bit more bottom from the bridge pickup.  Also, less output from the neck and more output from the bridge is good. 

I was recommended a Riff Raff in the neck by the guys at BKP and a Nailbomb in the bridge.  I can't help but think that the slightly phatter lows and hotter output of a Nailbomb would suit my playing style well.  I'm trying to tune the guitar to work well with a Mesa Boogie Electra Dyne and a thicker and phatter bridge pickup works very well with the extremely dynamic nature of this amplifier. 

The only frustration here is that the Rebel Yells work almost perfectly with my Dual Rectifier.  Unfortunately, the Electra Dyne is the amp I use 90% of the time so I have to figure something out.   

[darrenw5094]

Dude, if you are interested in moving the Rebel Yell on, i am interested.

I might like to change my Black Dog bridge and Riff Raff neck for the RY someday.

[Dave Sloven]

I would probably just try an A-bomb in the bridge at first, leaving the RY in the neck.  You might find that sorts out your issue.  The A-bomb is a close relative of the RY bridge, just its fatter, hairier, and more uncouth cousin

[Yellowjacket]

Yes, this is what I was thinking too.  It just needs a very minor adjustment. 

[Yellowjacket]

Dude, if you are interested in moving the Rebel Yell on, i am interested.

I might like to change my Black Dog bridge and Riff Raff neck for the RY someday.

Yes, I'll totally keep this in mind.  So far I'm thinking to just swap the bridge pickup for a slightly phatter sound.  I'm REALLY digging the neck Rebel Yell still.  It's a hard decision though since it isn't a particularly large problem.  Basically, the bridge pickup isn't quite ideal for my Electra Dyne but it absolutely slays 100% in the Recto.  The A-Bomb seems like a good candidate since it would still work in a Recto but would also phatten up the crunch in the Electra Dyne. 

[Kiichi]

Just to be sure here, have you exausted the height adjustment? I am just asking cause the RY is the most sensitive of all PUs I have ever seen in those terms. I always say "If you love it now, great. Tweak the height and chances are high it will get a lot better still." So if you have not done that yet, putting it closer to the strings might just do enough if you really are just talking about smaller changes here.

[Yellowjacket]

Ya, this is the problem.  Way low neck pickup, especially on the 'bass' side and a bridge pickup probably as far up as it will go.  It's almost there which is the bit that really bugs me.  They're absolutely fantastic pickups and I really appreciate the clarity, especially under extreme gain situations.  They also clean up so well which allows for many many shades of tone!! 

As I have stated, it's the wood that's the problem, not the pickups.  It's a weight relieved Gibson Les Paul which means it has holes drilled into the super dense mahogany to make the instrument lighter and less damaging to backs and necks.  For some reason, the result is a ball of mud neck pickup and a thin bridge pickup.  (I know a guy who owns a Custom Shop R8 Standard and he said that even with the stock pickups, the instrument has a balanced sound with a huge low end lunk to the sound as well as a growling midrange clarity.  While pickups matter, wood also matters. 

[Dave Sloven]

Wood and construction and material more generally make a HUGE difference, including as to how your pickup will sound.  I hated my A-Bomb in my SG and adjusted it in a really crazy way in a desperate attempt to get rid of the mid honk.  Last week I installed the same pickup in my Explorer, set it to a sensible height and I'm loving it

[Yellowjacket]

I agree 100%

It is always a huge cr@p shoot trying to find what pickup just properly meshes with a guitar.  My Godin LG has a Custom Custom bridge and an Alnico II Pro neck and it is really a 95% proper match.  I'd love something a bit brighter with more snot in the neck as well as something a bit clearer and brighter (but equally thick) in the bridge but I'm scared to switch things because it's such a great match already.  I put a PRS HFS in the bridge of that guitar once and it was an absolute disaster. 

The Rebel Yells are really 90% the way there in the Les Paul and the creative pickup adjustment gets me even closer.  It's a situation where I'm considering experimenting with pickups to try and compensate for the poor construction.  If I can find a balance, it will be a very useable guitar.  I am not keen on spending $5,000 to get an instrument that works.

Furthermore, the Rebel Yell bridge is perfect for the Dual Rectifier while the Rebel Yell neck is perfect for the Electra Dyne.  So, what can I do?  =-/ 

I think I'm going to play around with a mic and see how things stack up with a recording.  I suspect the ported oversized 1 x 12 cab may be amplifying these inconsistencies significantly. 

[Dave Sloven]

If your pickup adjustment is that drastic in search of more bass I would simply order an alnico Nailbomb and try that. It will probably sound a little more 'hairy' - and certainly would at the height you have the RY set at - but I think that at the proper height it would be less noticeable.  The reason why I suggest this pickup is that it is closely related to the RY and should give a meatier version of  the sound your already have

[Yellowjacket]

Hmm.

I wonder about pickup covers.  My Rebel Yells have the chrome etched ray gun design.  It would be weird to have one pickup like that and one which is unmatched.  So far, the best option seems to be to get a nailbomb for the bridge which would give me that bit more push / phatness on the bridge pickup.  The Rebel Yell bridge pickup is set pretty high and it definitely has plenty of hair.  The bass side of the neck pickup is pretty much flush with the pickup ring while the treble side is about 1 - 2 mm above the ring.  The bridge pickup is about 1.5mm from the strings on the treble side and about 2mm from the strings on the bass side...  I'd say that this is a pretty extreme adjustment.

If cash was not a problem at all, I'd have to say that the Riff Raff / Nailbomb combo would probably get me closer.  Of course, the Rebel Yell neck is awesome so just swapping one pickup would be ideal.  Perhaps I'd have have to get a nickel cover on the nailbomb and swap it with the Rebel Yell cover so that they'd still be matching?  We'll see, I'm still going to try micing things up.  Again, the cab may be accentuating these differences and if I can't hear them mic'd then they aren't such a huge deal. 

I think what I'm going through right now is just a case of growing pains as a guitarist.   When I got the Rebel Yells, I had my Dual Rectifier and they were a HUGE improvement over the stock pickups, ESPECIALLY since they sound so perfect with that amp.  I absolutely love the rhythm tone of the Rebel Yell with that amp.  The surgically tight bass of the pickup really tightens and reigns in the absolutely massive low end inherent to that amplifier. 

When I switched to the Electra Dyne, that's when I noticed that a meatier and thicker bridge pickup would push the amp more, particuarly on the Vintage Lo mode, which is where I spend 80 - 90% of my time playing live.  I rarely, if ever, shift onto vintage hi, and only usually for searing solos.  The dynamic nature of the crunch tones is really quite perfect on Vintage Lo and I particularly enjoy the hairy clean to wicked and articulate crunch on the neck pickup.  I just wish that the bridge pickup was thicker, and beefier.  The accentuated mids and high mids almost sound honky with the Electra Dyne, ESPECIALLY at low volumes.  Once I crank it it isn't such a problem except that the low end starts to really get huge and needs to be tempered.  It's a really neat / musical amp but it's a bit odd in some ways as well.  That being said, beside the warts, it's the most fun / responsive amp I've ever owned / played. 

It's also those accentuated mids and high mids that make that pickup so perfect for the recto.  The Rebel Yell contributes the very frequencies that a Recto needs to really shine. So, it's a tradeoff.  The Godin LG works very well for that phatter and beefier crunch tone on the Electra DYne but it sounds not so stellar with the Recto.  The LP is the other way but it is my number one guitar and the Electra DYne is my number one amp.  I guess the important thing here is to find the middle ground. 

[ericsabbath]

unless your gibson is a sleeper Skrull agent like yourself (ha! I'm reading the Secret Invasion, so I know it, Skrull! 8)), I don't see any relation with the mahogany density with what you're not liking about it
it's just normal that a les paul pickup sounds completely different from the bridge, espacially in your situation, considering the rebel yell bridge and neck models have completely different specs
maybe the pickups just didn't match your tastes for this particular guitar

if you want more push and thickness without switching to ceramics, there's the nailbomb and the holy diver
I'm not sure a riff raff on the neck will fix your problems... maybe a neck holy diver

[Slartibartfarst42]

To me, moving to the A-Bomb bridge makes a lot of sense as it has a lot in common with the Rebel Yell but is a bit darker, fatter and more aggressive. By the same token, I honestly feel like the Holydiver neck might be an equally good solution because the Cold Sweat, Rebel Yell and Holydiver necks are all closely related but the Cold Sweat is the darkest and most modern while the Holydiver is the brightest and most vintage. You clearly like the Rebel Yell neck but want it a bit brighter so the Holydiver is the obvious solution. There you go: A-Bomb bridge and Holydiver neck  :D