Attenuators

[Slartibartfarst42]

I've been thinking of getting an attenuator for my amp so I can push it better without getting to a ridiculous volume. At the moment I can play a gig in a pub on just 7w and with the amp going through the PA for better control of the overall sound, I can't even get that loud enough for the best tone. Attenuators seem to be very expensive so does anyone have any recommendations that don't cost the earth. I'd like to get something for no more than £150, though I don't mind going used.

[Lucas]

I wish I had one as well. I would say it`s a 'must have' piece of gear especially when you play in small venues and cannot crank your amp loud enough.
They cost a fortune, indeed. There`s quite few of interesting ones.
Radial`s Loadbox and new model Prodigy, but the one which is grabbing my attention for a while is Rivera RockCrusher Recording. Attenuator, load box and recording mic emulator, everything what you nedd in one piece of gear, really. But... expensive, costs tooo much...

[CommonCourtesy]

Me too, as an owner of a 6505+ and playing medium sized venues I can rarely turn it up above 2.5 without pissing the sound guy off. So its manageable but I'd like to run it on 3 to get the true character of the amp. In some venues that are smaller I barely touch 2 on the post gain and Mr Sound Man says to turn down!

[Slartibartfarst42]

I may have found a used Dr Z which seems like a good one but even if I can get that one, I'd still have to make sure I'm driving the speaker hard enough.

[Yellowjacket]

Are you after the sound of a driven power section on your amp?  If you are, an attenuator will do the trick but you'll have to buy tubes more often.  You'll probably want to get your amp serviced regularly as well. 

If you don't mind getting your amp modified, you can look into london power's power scaling kits. 

The biggest limiting factor -for more modern tones- is speaker excursion.  If you are using a preamp driven sort of a tone, then an attenuator is a complete waste of money.  If you don't have one already, a good 1 x 12 is a great thing for small venues. 

[Slartibartfarst42]

I should have made it clear from the outset that the amp I'm using is an Orange TH30 that is being run through an Orange 112 cabinet with a Vintage 30 speaker. While this setup gives me a fantastic tone when I can turn it up past 10 o' clock, it also has two limitations:

1) It's a VERY loud amp so even on the 7w setting, because we're using the PA to better control the sound, I'm still struggling to get the volume on the drive channel to 10 o'clock while the clean channel barely needs to move. There is no master volume on this amp. I don't know if this means an attenuator will work with it or not as I know nothing about them and I've never tried one.

2) I don't understand the technicalities of it all but I believe the Vintage 30 speaker is also naturally very loud because it's so efficient so at lower volumes I doubt I'm really pushing it enough to get it to really work.

Even if an attenuator would work, they seem to be pretty expensive for what sounds like rather variable results based on the reviews I've read but it remains an option. The other alternative that crossed my mind was to change the speaker to something that was essentially the same as the middy Vintage 30 but was a lot less efficient, allowing me to push the amp harder while remaining at the same volume. Does such a speaker exist and if so, what should I be looking at?

[Yellowjacket]

I should have made it clear from the outset that the amp I'm using is an Orange TH30 that is being run through an Orange 112 cabinet with a Vintage 30 speaker. While this setup gives me a fantastic tone when I can turn it up past 10 o' clock, it also has two limitations:

1) It's a VERY loud amp so even on the 7w setting, because we're using the PA to better control the sound, I'm still struggling to get the volume on the drive channel to 10 o'clock while the clean channel barely needs to move. There is no master volume on this amp. I don't know if this means an attenuator will work with it or not as I know nothing about them and I've never tried one.

The Orange TH 30 has volume, shape, and gain knobs, correct?  The gain knob controls the amount of preamp saturation.  The attenuator will work but the question is whether or not it will do what you want it to do.  There are several factors to consider with tone.  One of them is the fletcher-munson curve.  I found that recording an amp yields far less of a difference in tone at different volume levels than what I hear with my ear in the room.  First of all, be sure you are not falling prey to this phenomenon. 
If you like the sound of power amp distortion, then an attenuator will help you.  Are you running the gain low and turning the volume up to get the power tubes to purr?  This should be possible at 7 watts but it will be quite loud when it happens. 

2) I don't understand the technicalities of it all but I believe the Vintage 30 speaker is also naturally very loud because it's so efficient so at lower volumes I doubt I'm really pushing it enough to get it to really work.

I noticed this problem with v30s, especially in a 4 x 12.  They tend to behave a bit better in a 2 x 12 or 1 x 12, at least in my experience.  And yes, it is an incredibly efficient speaker, as most celestions are.  It puts out 100db / watt / metre so when you amp is putting out one watt, the rig is already prohibitively loud, based on what you are telling me.

Even if an attenuator would work, they seem to be pretty expensive for what sounds like rather variable results based on the reviews I've read but it remains an option. The other alternative that crossed my mind was to change the speaker to something that was essentially the same as the middy Vintage 30 but was a lot less efficient, allowing me to push the amp harder while remaining at the same volume. Does such a speaker exist and if so, what should I be looking at?

When I talked about various tone factors associated with sound, I was saving one for here.  If you like the sound of speaker excursion, an attenuator will not help with this.  Basically, the speaker will start to contribute 'distortion' to the tone at loud volumes and they often 'open up' nicely at about 1 watt. 
Unfortunately, you won't get a v30 tone from another speaker.  But, there are some cool new speakers on the market.  The downside is that they are really expensive. 

http://www.guitarplayer.com/lessons/1014/eminence-maverick-and-reignmaker-flux-density-modulation-speakers/13153

http://fluxtonespeakers.com/index.html

Or you can try running a torpedo live cab sim and use your cab for monitoring: 
http://www.two-notes.com/en/hardware/torpedo-live/

But these are all expensive solutions.  Can you record your amp?  Do you have a DAW / sm57?  Do you have a friend who does?
If so, I highly recommend recording your guitar.  Do this experiment:  Find your ideal mic placement and mark it on your cab  (Or memorize it).  Then dial in your idea sound and record.  Turn down the amp volume by 1 and record.  Keep doing this until the amp is almost off.
Then, adjust the different clips so the audio levels are the same and listen to the degradation of tone.  I suspect that it will be FAR less than you think.    I have done this test and it solved me a lot of money and headaches.

I suspect that the tone will be more consistent across various volume levels than you expect.  The lesson here is that a mic 'hears' something different than we do.  Maybe you just need a 'magic guitar mic' to take with you to gigs? 

Another factor with high volume playing is how you can 'feel' the tone at high volumes.  The guitar interacts differently at high volumes because of the feedback generated by high SPLs.  You can't replicate this at low volumes =-(

If you want power amp distortion from your amp, then the torpedo live, an attenuating speaker, or an attenuator will help, but at a price.

If you like playing loud, you're just going to have to find a way to come to terms with the fact that a loud guitar doesn't help anybody except the guitarist.

[Slartibartfarst42]

That's a lot to take in!

I use the gain control for distortion rather than the volume control because if I take the gain down, the amp is seriously loud before I get the distortion back. I find that the best gain setting is between 10 o' clock and noon and that seems to be in keeping with most other TH30 users. I have mine set to just before noon (11.30) and for anything lighter than that I use an Overdrive pedal on the Clean channel. The Clean channel is ludicrously loud at most volume settings and is much louder than the Drive channel. I try to get the volume control on the Drive channel to at least 10 o' clock as that's where it seems to start really singing. Again, this seems to be in keeping with the findings of other TH30 users. What I'd like to be able to do is engage the full 30w or at least 15w, edge the gain back and push the volume up a bit to end up at a lower overall volume through the attenuator. Is that possible?

[Yellowjacket]

Guitar tone chasing is such a huge buttpain.

I'm going to be honest, the only way to REALLY know what works for you is to try stuff and see if you like it or not.  Some guys like what an attenuator does to the tone of a Master Volume style amplifier and others hate it.  Same with those variable efficiency speakers as well as different, low efficiency speakers.  Same with trying different drivers in a cab.  It's totally hit and miss until you find what works for YOU! 

In terms of amp facts:  A 15 watt or 30 watt signal path will have a DIFFERENT tone than the 7 watt signal path BECAUSE of the difference in wattage.  I'm not sure if you are familiar with how volume is perceived, but you need to use 10 times the power to perceive a doubling in volume.  i.e. 10 watts is half as loud as 100 watts.  What actually changes from a small displacement head to a large displacement head is the tone of the amp.  The increase in power actually gives a 'bigger' tone.  i.e. more bass and punch.  So, 15 & 30 watts will sound different from 7 watts.  This will be even more dramatic on an amp like yours that has such a frustratingly limited tone stack.
 
I heard an amp tech say that at very low volumes, it is possible that the MV (volume) pot bleeds off frequencies in an uneven way so that may be partially responsible for the weird tonal shift perceived at low volumes.  I also find that the preamp section doesn't generate nearly as much gain and compression with the volume almost off, so I have to turn up the gain to compensate.  I generally bring the gain down as I bring up the volume.  I also roll the mids up and the bass down, but that's a different discussion.

So, to answer your question.  I think that an attenuated 30 watt amp at 90db will sound different from a 7 watt amp at 90db, for a number of reasons, as indicated above.  The question will be whether you LIKE that difference or not.  You need to figure out what component in the signal chain is the limiting factor on your tone.  i.e.  Is it the MV pot?  The Preamp Tubes?  The Power Tubes?  Speaker Excursion?  Your ear / fletcher munson curve? 

Will the attenuator do something?  Yes it will.  Will you like it?  Only experience will tell.  You'll know if it is a speaker excursion problem right away because the rig will still sound 'constipated', even with the attenuator engaged.  (I fought with a v30 equipped 4 x 12 over this issue for years)  Do you know anyone who has an attenuator you can try?  How about a guitar shop somewhere?  I think if you plug into one, you'll have your answer really quickly.

Also, before you do anything, really DO try that recording test I told you about.  This will eliminate that pesky fletcher munson curve thing.

Oh, one other thing.  RE the clean & Drive channels.  Is this something other users have noticed?  The difference in volume?  If not, perhaps you need to test your preamp tubes?  How old is the amp?  When was the last time you checked your tubes? 

I hope this helps.  =-o 

[edit]  Another important point to consider is how your rig sounds in the context of the rest of your band.  Recording will also help with this.  I honestly think the right mic and a decent mic placement will make all the difference.  Then, the FOH guy will roll off certain frequencies to make everything fit right.  I honestly think we quibble too much.  I was using my Mesa at mouse fart volumes and I heard a recording of the mains, and it sounded like I was wailing on a cranked tube amp.  Kind of surprising, really.

[Slartibartfarst42]

I noticed that phenomenon shortly after I bought the amp as well as the whole Class A as opposed to Class A/B thing. My previous amp was a 60w Blackstar and this 30w Orange is significantly louder. Naturally I immediately reduced the amp to 15w and it made virtually no difference to the volume at all so then it was down to 7w and although quieter than at 30w, it wasn't like it was a huge difference but I did notice distinct changes to the tonal characteristics of the amp as the wattage changed. The 7w setting has far more pronounced highs than 30w but the overall tone is a bit more two dimensional. I also noticed that on the 15w setting, it sounded better using two valves on full power as opposed to all four valves on half power. Given my experience with this amp, it always makes me laugh when someone asks on a guitar forum if a 20w or 30w valve amp will be powerful enough to play a small gig. I've never had my amp over 15w even when I was playing an outdoor gig in the summer and when playing in pubs, I annoy the sound guy using 7w and it's not even turned up very far. I have this 30w amp now because it has the features I want on it (two channels, plenty gain and an effects loop) but if I found the same features on a 5w valve amp I'd be inclined to change but generally the valve amps with very low wattage don't have those features. There's certainly more of them than there were a few years ago but they can be a bit pricey compared to what the TH30 cost me used.

Anyway, back to the question at hand. I understand that the EQ characteristics of the amp will change but I run an EQ pedal in the loop so that doesn't particularly worry me at this stage. I found a video on YouTube of a guy using a Weber Mini Mass with an Orange TH30 and it seemed really effective. The treble boost switch certainly helped to compensate for the loss of highs that resulted from attenuation. Unfortunately, Weber products don't seem to be available outside America that I can find so I've emailed the company to ask about the cost of shipping here. Alternatively, I have a friend in America so perhaps they could buy it and send it to me.

[Yellowjacket]

5 watts is not much less power than 7 watts.  Not at all.  Guitarists don't realize that they are using, -at most- 10 watts of their cranked halfstacks!!!   Your 7 watt setting is putting out over 100db with that v30 which is why it is so loud.  The upper mid spike of the v30 makes it cut like a knife!!! 

When you buy an amp, you are paying for features, not wattage.  A 5 watt amp with all the same features as a Mesa Boogie Mark V would cost roughly the same amount of money.  Consumers generally believe that smaller amps should be cheaper so amp builders don't put lots of features on a low power box because players will simply buy the more powerful amp with those same features instead. 

Rivera has a 'rock crusher' which is a good attenuator, at least as far as I have heard.  I'm not sure what to recommend since I found a good sounding 1 x 12 and find that I can get good volume tones out of it even with a 100 watt head.  Sure, it doesn't sound cranked, but it's good enough, especially with a mic in front. 

The EQ in the loop must be nice for dialing in tones.  Although they apply globally, at least you can get more of the frequency band you require for sitting well in the mix of a band.  Great solo boost or rhythm scoop, depending on the cab / guitar combination. 

Mesa released a 5 band graphic EQ and they demo'd it by scooping a recto, which seriously cracked me up.  It's like YOU'RE DOING IT WR0NG!!!  With that amp, you'd think they'd BOOST the mids and shovel off a bit of that problematic low end! 

[Slartibartfarst42]

This is very true and there is no doubt that a lot is to do with ignorance and misinformation. We live in a world where, unless you're talking about a woman, bigger is generally seen as better. As most of us are men, I suspect we also fall into the trap of 'mine is bigger than yours' syndrome. I can go out and buy a car with a 300w stereo in it so when you're faced with a guitar amp of just 30w the natural inclination is to see it as not very powerful when in reality the two things are completely different. It's then made more complex as most guitarists will start on a cheap, solid state practice amp of 15-30w and it doesn't have to be prohibitively loud before it sounds awful. I remember when I started looking at bigger amps I started by looking at something at least 100w and I mistakenly assumed that 100w was 100w regardless of whether it was solid state or valve. It's been a steep learning curve and it sounds stupid saying all this now but I don't think my experience is that different to most other guitarists. That first 'big' amp I got was 65w solid state and I was amazed at how loud it would go. After that my ear started to develop a bit more and I switched to valve, which was a 40w Marshall and I remember still being concerned that 40w wouldn't be enough! I'm now all the way down to 30w and I have the loudest amp I've ever owned! The thing is, it's a difficult cycle to break free from. Even knowing all of this, if I was faced with a choice between a 5w amp and a 30w amp for the same price and with the same features, I'd still be tempted to get the 30w version even though the 5w amp would be better for me.

I think that an attenuator of some sort has to be the best option for what I want as there's no way a change of speaker is going to have the same impact. I looked at the Rock Crusher and while it's undoubtedly good, it certainly isn't cheap. Still waiting to hear back from Weber.

[gwEm]

I use a JCM1-H for practise and 1watt cranked will shake my sash windows and piss off the neighbours. You could do a more quiet gig with it, you wouldn't have much headroom though.

I use it in the 0.1w mode where it is absolute perfect for home use. Indeed, its so perfect I use it almost everyday at any time of the day or night, which was never possible with my 50w  head.

Speakers do sound different when pushed too.

I looked into minimass and hot plate attenuators for my 2204 (50w) plus various other options like EL84 power valves and decided in the end a JCM1-H would a better option.

Indeed it sounds almost as good. It doesnt have quite the same roar when you crank it, but thats life.

Makes me think, most of the time I was most probably only using 0.5w of that 50w. Even gigging, I would be fine with 20w.

If I wanted to keep using the big head, I would most probably use an isolation cab or power scaling rather than an attenuator. I found I was losing some high end when I tested one.

[Yellowjacket]

This is very true and there is no doubt that a lot is to do with ignorance and misinformation. We live in a world where, unless you're talking about a woman, bigger is generally seen as better. As most of us are men, I suspect we also fall into the trap of 'mine is bigger than yours' syndrome. I can go out and buy a car with a 300w stereo in it so when you're faced with a guitar amp of just 30w the natural inclination is to see it as not very powerful when in reality the two things are completely different. It's then made more complex as most guitarists will start on a cheap, solid state practice amp of 15-30w and it doesn't have to be prohibitively loud before it sounds awful. I remember when I started looking at bigger amps I started by looking at something at least 100w and I mistakenly assumed that 100w was 100w regardless of whether it was solid state or valve. It's been a steep learning curve and it sounds stupid saying all this now but I don't think my experience is that different to most other guitarists. That first 'big' amp I got was 65w solid state and I was amazed at how loud it would go. After that my ear started to develop a bit more and I switched to valve, which was a 40w Marshall and I remember still being concerned that 40w wouldn't be enough! I'm now all the way down to 30w and I have the loudest amp I've ever owned! The thing is, it's a difficult cycle to break free from. Even knowing all of this, if I was faced with a choice between a 5w amp and a 30w amp for the same price and with the same features, I'd still be tempted to get the 30w version even though the 5w amp would be better for me.

I think that an attenuator of some sort has to be the best option for what I want as there's no way a change of speaker is going to have the same impact. I looked at the Rock Crusher and while it's undoubtedly good, it certainly isn't cheap. Still waiting to hear back from Weber.

Yup, we all think 'more power is better' when in reality, more power just sounds different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXY53F03-lk
Same preamp, different poweramp.

RE: attenuators vs speakers, don't count those fluxtone speakers out.  I would surmise that they are possibly the most effective solution for good tones at low volumes.  The issue with them is that they are prohibitively expensive.  They should be selling for half of what they do, I think. 
http://fluxtonespeakers.com/how-it-works.html

Anyway, happy tone hunting. 

I use a JCM1-H for practise and 1watt cranked will shake my sash windows and piss off the neighbours. You could do a more quiet gig with it, you wouldn't have much headroom though.

I use it in the 0.1w mode where it is absolute perfect for home use. Indeed, its so perfect I use it almost everyday at any time of the day or night, which was never possible with my 50w  head.

Speakers do sound different when pushed too.

I looked into minimass and hot plate attenuators for my 2204 (50w) plus various other options like EL84 power valves and decided in the end a JCM1-H would a better option.

Indeed it sounds almost as good. It doesnt have quite the same roar when you crank it, but thats life.

Makes me think, most of the time I was most probably only using 0.5w of that 50w. Even gigging, I would be fine with 20w.

If I wanted to keep using the big head, I would most probably use an isolation cab or power scaling rather than an attenuator. I found I was losing some high end when I tested one.

This is a great point.  Power scaling preserves tube life and the result of it is quite different from attenuating an amp.  Basically, you can 'dial in' power amp distortion which is useful for creating 'driven' tones at lower volumes. 
The Fluxtone speakers alter the efficiency of the speaker which controls volume at that point in the circuit.  I personally don't like the idea of attenuating an amp because you make the amplifier work really hard all the time and wear tubes, etc.  But, if you use like -6db just to get past the threshold of the MV pot, then it may be helpful. 

I think each solution involves a compromise and each player chooses something based on that they feel is a reasonable one. 

[Slartibartfarst42]

I was sold on the idea of a FluxTone speaker right up to the point when I saw the price. $1300 for a speaker is more than a little steep. There's no way I'm sinking the thick end of £1000 into a speaker for an amp that cost me £350. The Reignmaker is a more sensible price and could well be a possibility while the attenuator I'm considering most is the Weber Minimass. I've yet to do any research on power scaling so will do that now.