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Author Topic: To swap or not to swap... speakers  (Read 9860 times)

GuitarIv

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To swap or not to swap... speakers
« on: March 30, 2016, 11:41:25 PM »
Hey everyone,

so I've got a little decision to make in the near future and I need your thoughts.

I've bought a used ENGL 412 Cab for dirt cheap a year ago (paid 200 bucks!) and it wasn't until recently that I realized that it has the cheaper Celestion V12-60 speakers mounted instead of the V30s. Kinda funny considering the fact that it has "ENGL E412 Vintage" written on the back but that seems to be from a time before ENGL started labeling their cheaper cabs with the V60s "Standard" versus the "Pro" that comes with V30s. No biggie there I'm thinking. I might just as well swap two of the V60s out for two V30s.

But here's the clue: the speakers aren't the only thing that differs. From the ENGL homepage:

Standard Cab:

"Particleboard plus Siberian Birch baffle board."

Pro Cab:

"Siberian Birch 14 times folded"

After opening the cab I can confirm that I have the cheaper version made out of particleboard. Now I'm a little bit unsure if I should just go on and swap em speakers or sell the thing and save up some money to get "the real deal". Quite frankly I don't need two 412s and my JCM 800 cab sounds amazing, I just want to have some Vintage 30s as an alternative to the G12-65 speakers in the JCM800 cab.

I don't wanna be a corksniffer, the ENGL is heavy as hell, feels very sturdy and keeps the sound tight. I won't be moving it anytime soon so abuse isn't going to happen, I'm just a bit concerned about sound. How much of a difference is it gonna make if I have the Vintage 30s in an ENGL cab that's made out of particleboard as opposed to a higher quality 212 (Orange, ENGL or Mesa) that comes with better wood and Vintage 30s from the factory?

Fire away, cheers!

Dave Sloven

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2016, 01:57:15 AM »
I don't know what the V60s sound like but the tone from my Orange PPC412 V30 cab is very special ... but I hated it until it broke in ... you have to crank them for a while to break them in, they'll never break in if you don't give them some juice

I would give that cab of yours a good run to see if they are broken in, and if they don't change and you don't like the cab still then think about getting one of the V30 cabs you mention.  I wouldn't upgrade a particle board cab.  I would sell it and upgrade, or keep it as it is.  Often you can find a cheaper 4x V30 cab (e.g., Line 6) for less than the cost of the speakers.
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dave_mc

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2016, 10:50:39 AM »
^ Yeah that's what I was going to say. You can often get a cab for not much more (maybe less) than the price of speakers alone, especially if they're pretty common speakers like V30s.

GuitarIv

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2016, 02:31:58 AM »
The V60s aren't that bad actually, they are tight in the lowend and somewhat scooped sounding, haven't tested them on high volumes yet but they do the job. The cab has been used before so I suppose they are broken in by now. The reason I wanna stick some V30s in there is that I like my mids and I hope they will blend in well in a X-pattern.

It's not that I don't like the cab, it sounds good and as already mentioned it's heavy and sturdy (I don't think a company like ENGL would put out cr@ppy products, the cheaper cabs still go for 800€ new). I'm just thinking it might be silly to put two V30s in there when the particleboard thingy would be stuck somewhere in the back of my head nagging me that I should get as already mentioned "the real thing". So to paraphrase: it's not the speakers per se that bother me, I'm just trying to figure out if a plywood cab with V30s will sound that much better or different than the ENGL that (although it has particleboard sides) already sounds good.

It's that typical guitar player thingy: I have something that sounds good, but there might be something that sounds even better. Know what I'm saying?  :tongue:

Yellowjacket

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2016, 07:08:34 AM »

After opening the cab I can confirm that I have the cheaper version made out of particleboard. Now I'm a little bit unsure if I should just go on and swap em speakers or sell the thing and save up some money to get "the real deal". Quite frankly I don't need two 412s and my JCM 800 cab sounds amazing, I just want to have some Vintage 30s as an alternative to the G12-65 speakers in the JCM800 cab.


I guess it depends what sort of a tone you want.

Preamble:  I heard some cool tones out of a homemade 1 x 12 made out of scr@ps of flooring.  It is probably the coolest looking cab ever.   Getting a 'good' tone doesn't always mean copying what sounds polished, high fi, and 'in style'.  At the end of the day, it is all about what YOU like as well as how YOU wish to make music.  The best tone is had by improving one's playing in terms of precision, clarity, as well as 'feel' and 'tone'.

That being said, what do you hope to gain? 

A friend of mine who builds amps tells me that the sound is 70% speaker and 30% cab.  I'm not entirely sure I fully agree with that.  I'd say more 60% speaker and 40% cab, but that's just me.  The long answer is that a speaker has a certain sonic footprint and certain frequencies are emphasized over others.  A cabinet imparts a passive EQ onto the sound of the speaker by amplifying certain frequencies and attenuating others.  This is really a mathematical thing based on the dimensions of the cab and the resonance frequencies of that cab. 
In my experience with DIY cab building (I know a carpenter) and speaker selection, I'd say that certain speakers prefer certain cab designs. 
For example:  I have a Mesa Boogie 27" Royal Atlantic Extension Cabinet.  It's a ported, wide body 1 x 12 and it has a Celestion mc90 (Mesa spec modified CL80).  This is usually a somewhat fizzy and 80s sounding speaker.  Very meaty sounding with a notch in the upper mids and an emphasis on the low mids.  It tends to take the frequency footprint of a Dual Rectifier and accentuate it in an unpleasant way.  In this particular cabinet, the speaker manages to sound quite British and it co-operates nicely with the Recto.
The homemade 2 x 12 is a copy of a Mills Acoustic Mach212B and it is quite an oversized unit.  32" by 20" by 18"
The cab also seems to accentuate the same frequencies that are predominant with the mc90.  I had a v30 and an MC90 in that cab and it was dark and low mid heavy.  Almost TOO american.  It sounded good but it needed more high end.
I replaced the MC90 for a Warehouse Guitar Speaker (WGS) ET90 and the cab just came alive like crazy.

The result was a more British sort of a tone which was comparable to the RA 27" 1 x 12.  So, the interaction of the speaker with the cab produced the tonal result.


Short answer:  I think your best bet is to find the cab that works best with your guitar, pickups, and amp.  Then you can decide IF any speaker upgrades will be necessary.  This will save you money and headaches in the long run, trust me. 

For metal, I'd recommend a Celestion v30 with a WGS ET90 in a 2 x 12 or 4 x 12.  the upper mids of the v30 and the highs of the WGS ET90 give a nice, wide tonal spectrum.  Another popular pairing is a v30 with a G12k 100.

Anyway, people have mixed opinions on speaker mixing but I'm of the opinion that you can mic up both and actually get more complex and interesting guitar tones.  I know the X pattern is a favourite for blending but I'd be more incline to pair the speakers right and left for a more stereo 3D sort of a sound. 

Dave Sloven

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2016, 11:36:20 PM »
Yellowjacket I have read that the CL80 mixes well with a V30 in a closed back 212 cab. Have you tried that?
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dave_mc

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2016, 10:30:15 PM »
^ I dunno about Yellowjacket but I have. Only at low volumes but it seems to be a nice combo (at least at low volumes). They complement each other well and fill out each other's deficiencies in the EQ.

ericsabbath

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2016, 01:36:32 PM »
v30's are quite dominant
cabs will make a difference, but a v30 will always sound like a v30
if you like the csb as it is, just do it
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gwEm

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2016, 06:26:51 PM »
A couple of secondhand vintage thirties on eBay won't break the bank, or you could get one of those Harley Benton cabs from Thomann with the dual vintage 30s (depending on the impedance of course)
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GuitarIv

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2016, 10:32:31 AM »
Thanks everyone for all the input,

I looked up some Vintage 30s on Ebay and there are plenty of em' being sold for cheap so I suppose I'll let curiosity win this time and just go for it.

Yellowjacket: I read a lot of threads online recommending the G12-K100 in combination with V30s and if my memory serves me well Orange started selling cabs with them recently. Aren't they supposed to be somewhat similar to the G12-T75 regarding the scooped EQ?
Lots of praise online for WGS speakers too. Seem to be cheaper than Celestions as well  :huh:

The ENGL Cab has the option to be run stereo, the manual says I can actually connect two amps at the same time and split the speakers left and right. If I install the V30s in a X-pattern that would give me the combination of them with the V60s for both amps, one left one right. I'll be mixing speakers for the first time so I'm curious to find out what it sounds like  :smiley:


fps_dean

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2016, 04:02:00 AM »
I once replaced 4 speakers in a cabinet and I could have sold my cabinet and bought another and broke even, but the only reason I didn't do that is I wanted Celestion Classic Leads which are not in many cabinets.  At the end of the day, my cabinet is a thousand times better than it was with those awful G12T-75s, but it would have been much cheaper to simply trade the cabinet for one with V30s.

Just something to think about.
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Yellowjacket

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2016, 09:24:41 AM »
To further confound the issue:

There are actually multiple variants of the v30 speakers currently being produced.   While the core voicing of the speaker is preserved,
the upper harmonics - in particular - seem to be the most impacted by the changes. 

The current stock v30s have more of a pronounced high end which can become fizzy.  The 8 ohm speakers have the T code T3903.  I don't recall the T code for the 16 ohm speakers off hand. 

Now, I often noted how Mesa cabs sounded sweeter, darker, and more musical. While cab construction plays a part, it turns out the v30s are different.  They are apparently assembled using vintage specifications for the speaker and this variant is only available as OEM parts for Mesa cabs.  The 8ohm T code is T4335. 

Apparently Celestion redesigned the speakers to make them cheaper to produce but Mesa liked the older version better and they got that.

I'm told Marshall has their own variant that is even brighter than the T3903 v30s but I have not confirmed this.


I have managed to acquire a T4335 v30 on a trade so I'll have to comment on it when I have a moment.  It is not installed yet but when it is, it will be interesting to hear how it impacts the tone of a 2 x 12, especially with another speaker with as aggressive of a top end as the WGS ET90.  It would also be interesting to try two v30s in the cab haha. 


Comments on speaker blending.  I've done this a bit and I have had some good results.

v30 + G12m 25 is cool but it makes for a cab that has wimpy output because of the 25 watt handling capabilities of the greenback.

v30 + G12H 30.  Dr Z likes this.  I've tried cabs with these speakers and they're awesome.

v30 T4335 + Black Shadow (celestion) c90.  This is a fantastic speaker combo.  It excels at leads, rhythm, and cleans.  It sounds best with a brighter amp like a Mesa Mark V. 

v30 + WGS ET90.  This is an awesome speaker combination but it is quite bright and has a huge ROAR to it.  Best for high gain rhythm playing in my estimation.  The tone can be tempered with amp settings. 

Periphery likes the G12H 75 mixed with a v30.  I'd be tempted to try this but Celestion speakers are not cheap.  WGS is honestly a great option, especially since they are assembled state side from the same OEM parts as Celestion. 

I've heard the G12K 100 is excellent with a v30 but I opted for an ET90 in lieu of it because it was much more financially available to me. 


I think for high gain tones, the core tone will be a v30.   There really is not a better speaker for this application.  The secondary speaker is really selected based on how you wish to 'colour' the sound of a v30.  In my opinion, I wouldn't not put speakers in an X pattern in a 4 x 12.  rather, I'd put v30s on one side and the other model of choice on the other.  Furthermore, it makes sense to install a partial ported baffle between the speakers to mitigate the phase cancellation somewhat.    This is a matter of taste, of course.  But, my favourite thing about blending speakers is how it makes the cab sound more stereo and 3D.  Because of how the brain perceives sound, it makes the most sense to send a different signal to the right ear than to the left one.  Just my $0.02.

fps_dean

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2016, 03:52:28 PM »
There are actually multiple variants of the v30 speakers currently being produced.

Oh interesting... I have a Marshall Studio 15, which is the first amp (or cabinet) the v30 was ever used with, and it's much less thin than the newer V30s I have used, Mesa or Marshall.
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Yellowjacket

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2016, 07:59:40 PM »
Some of this can be due to the cab design and / or how much the speaker has aged. 
The v30s in Mesa cabs are supposedly based off of the original v30 design and they do have a more 'rolled off' top end which gives the perception of them being somewhat phatter sounding.  But part of tone is how an amplifier interacts with a speaker so there is that as well.

At any rate, what you are noticing isn't just your imagination.

GuitarIv

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Re: To swap or not to swap... speakers
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2016, 08:16:57 AM »
So I actually put the cab up for sale after reading all the pros and cons, I did an A/B test between the ENGL cab and my Marshall 412 and decided that the JCM 800 cab does what I need for now very well. The G12-65 Celestions sound amazing for Hard Rock and Thrash and have more of an old school vibe, the ENGL cab sounds deeper and fatter but I actually like the more biting nature of the Marshall 412.

I sent Lasse Lammert (German Metal producer) an E-Mail inquiring about the swapping of speakers since he did exactly what I intended to do, his response was that the V30 do improve the sound of the standard cab but the "real deal" still sounds tighter. So I'll just stick with my Marshall cab for now and keep my eyes open for a decent used V30 box.

Thanks for all the input, I'm sure this thread will help out a few people who have the same questions as I did  :smiley: