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Author Topic: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts  (Read 10642 times)

GuitarIv

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Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« on: June 27, 2016, 05:24:43 PM »
Cheers everyone,

so right now I'm sitting at home waiting for a guy to drop by and buy my cr@ppy old Laney 412 cab. I was thinking I might just as well open up a new thread about a few observations and thoughts I had during the last few months whilst selling all my unnecessary gear.

First things first: I finally got to the point (after years) where I feel like I have all the gear I want and my G.A.S. levels have finally droped. One of the probably best aquisitions I have made is the 1960 JCM 800 cab I scored used, it turned out to have old Celestion g12-65 speakers (made in England in the 80's) and ever since I own the thing my ENGL cab as well as my Laney cab now have a new home.

It just seems to me that every damn amp I play through that cab sounds amazing and whenever I try a different 412 I instantly cringe. Now I don't have too much info on the g12-65 speakers except that they where what came before the 70 and the infamous 75 Marshall uses nowadays in their 1960 cabs. People also describe them as higher powered Greenback. Hell whatever it is this cab and those speakers have something magical about them I really love. Especially the midrange is healthy and thick but not fatiguing.

Now I'm still kinda contemplating about getting a second decent cab with V30s, pretty much just because everyone loves them for modern metal and they are said to be the most cutting, but this brings me to my next question: just how much does gear really matter?

I played the Laney Ironheart Studio at my local music store one day using a Marshall 412 with the G12-75s and really liked the sound, I swapped cabs for an Egnater 412 with V30s and everything sounded so thin and nasal I hated it. Now I don't wanna throw out money out of the window if I end up with a cab I don't like just so I can say "yeah man I've got em Vintage 30s".

To bring the whole wall of text to a conclusion: does anyone (who has some experiences with the speakers) know if the G12-65s will be cutting enough for live situations or do I need that extra midrange spike the V30 have? I know just because something sounds bad by itself it doesn't mean it doesn't sound amazing in a full mix and vice versa. Just planning ahead for some future gigs.

On to my next conclusion: I don't know if it's because I'm older and wiser, or because I try to focus more on practising, songwriting and music itself but I seem to be less and less interested in upgrading my current rig for something "better".

I have a JCM 2000 DSL 100, but everyone says the 800 is IT. Don't care. I own the ENGL Savage 60, but the 120 is supposed to be even better. Whatever. ENGL, MESA and ORANGE cabs are better for metal than Marshall. So what? Don't get me wrong I know I should trust my ears it's just that I just don't care about all that shiny new stuff you find on the market. I'm satisfied and that's a completely new thing for me. Just some food for thought.

Opinions lads, let me hear em, cheers!  :grin:

Dave Sloven

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 01:15:27 AM »
I hated my V30s when I first got them.  Are you sure the ones you played through had been broken in?  With V30s in particular it makes a huge difference.
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CommonCourtesy

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 02:53:42 PM »
I own a Marshall 1960 4 x 12 and the G12T-75's were ok but I thought they lacked a bit of cut esp when playing in drop tunings.  I installed a couple of V30's in an x formation (top right and bottom left) and noticed a nicer cut in the mids and a brighter sound. With the blend of the stock G-75's its a good combination. Putting off upgrading to an Orange PPC412 or even a Mesa as they're so bloody heavy to lift! Also I don't' get to play through my own cab much as most bills I play on now isn't a headliner which doesn't require me to take my cab.

Try putting in 2 V30's like I did and see how that sounds before spunking on a brand new cab.

Telerocker

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2016, 06:06:25 PM »
Playing in V30's takes a few rehearsels.
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ericsabbath

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2016, 07:47:21 PM »
trust your ears

I loved v30's with some amps I had and hated with other amps
my 2002 bogner shiva sounds AMAZING with v30's, and so did the randall diavlo rd50 fortin rev I had
I had a framus cobra that sounded great with greenbacks and awful with v30's
I had a couple mesa rectifiers that I totally hated with v30's and the century vintage version, but they sounded good with greenbacks
my 1973 lee jackson/zambelli 50w marshall JMP sounds great with black shadows, scumbacks, celestion h30's and chinese hiwatt fanes, but sounds annoying with v30's
I had a 1984 jcm 800 2203 that didn't sound quite good with v30's, but ABSOLUTELY GREAT with the chinese fanes and scumbacks
I also had a jet city jca20h that sounded awful with stock laney speakers (not sure if HH or rockets), and just ok with scumback h75's (h30's), black shadows and some 50w greenback clones I had (similar to weber silver bells)... but the amp really shined with v30's in the right volume (between 10 and 11 o' clock)
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Dave Sloven

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2016, 04:49:32 AM »
I played a friend's Laney Lionheart through my Orange PPC412 (V30s) cab and it sounded pretty bad.

My Peavey 6534+ sounds glorious through it though
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 04:51:08 AM by Agent Orange »
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mesa0131

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2016, 09:58:55 PM »
As a self proclaimed speaker (and pickup) NUT, I can safely say your g12-65s will very likely hold up very well in a live situation, and you can always tweak your amp if you are missing something once in a band scenario. I scored a Marshall JMP 50 watt 212 combo that had the amp removed years before. It had the original 15 ohm Marshall g12-65s in it and I ran it as an open back 212. That thing sounded SUPERB! And I have never liked open back cabs, but this one was different. I then aquired a 1981 Marshall JCM 800 lead series (1960A) 412 that I got unloaded from the same guy. Man do I wish it had the original g12-65's in it. I had done alot of mixing and matching with different speakers and found I really liked a marriage of the G12-65 tone, and a V30 mixed, in an X pattern.

I had tried the 65's with a few variations of Vintage 30's; The Mesa UK-made v30s, the Marshall Vintage speaker (Stock in 1960AV/BV cabs) and current production chinese V30s. The Current production was my LEAST favorite of the 3, most likely because the other 2 pairs of speakers were very well broken in and the chinese were not and were very stiff. I however feel they would take alot to break them in to the point where I would like them and that would be a true test of patience of the highest degree; Sold them instantly. The Mesa UK-made v30s were smooth and tighter on the bottom end, much better for high gain, and not as grating in the upper mids. More polished sounding. The Marshall vintage speaker was more greenback territory than the Mesa UK-made v30, and a little looser on the bottom, perhaps a touch warmer and less focused. Perfect for pushed blues or hard rock sounds, and still good for high gain, just different.

Through all of this experimentation I learned that, contrary to what the internet says, tone is subjective. You must try it for yourself and see, and throw away any preconceived notions you have of any item and base your opinion solely on experience. My mileage in the speaker world has lead me to my ideal setup:
2 Marshall 412s, one slant and one straight both wired in an x-pattern.

The slant is running 2 WGS ET-65s (The best sounding G12-65 style speaker on the market, more broken in sounding out of the box than the Celestion Heritage) and 2 WGS Veteran 30 (V30 inspired with some tonal improvements)

The straight cab is running 2 WGS ET-65s, and 2 WGS Retro-30 (Another V30 variant, that is tonally closer to the Mesa UK-made v30)

I have found the straight cab to be more boomy through all my speaker swaps, so I opted for the retro 30, which tightens up the bottom end and brings a little more treble to the mix. It worked extremely well to balance the cabs, however that cab remains the most polished and focused sounding.

The slant cab with the Veteran 30's is my favorite cab to run on its own, and is a little more wooly and over all has a tone that is very pleasing without sounding overly hi-fi, and I do like a little bit of "imperfection" in my tone. But as we all know, its great to have options, especially when your hitting the studio.

I know many people or devoted Celestion users, but WGS is a great company, with superb products, for half the price (US dollars) of a Celestion offering. Could be worth looking into.

Hope this helps

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Yellowjacket

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2016, 03:15:17 AM »
WGS speakers are great.  I was running a Celestion v30 / WGS ET90 combination in my 2 x 12 but now I have a chinese v30  (hellatone 60) and a UK (Mesa) v30 in that cab.  The tone is more vanilla but it's tighter and I like the feel better.  I've gone through a lot of speakers and cabs, but I recently gave up with it and I'm rocking a Torpedo Live now instead!  ^_^

Absolutely fantastic post above, I agree with everything there.  Try stuff and trust your own ears and you'll eventually find what you want. 

_tom_

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2016, 11:24:10 AM »
I recently put a V30 in my cab after years of using 2x G12H30s (still have one in there) and it sounds awesome with my Laney. I probably wouldn't want 2 of them but the mix of the two is as good as people say! I considered WGS but managed to find the celestion for a good price used.

I've only tried a marshall cab to compare but it was awful with the t75s. Weak and "fake" sounding. My cab seems to have much more presence and "3d" sound.

Alfi27

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2016, 11:56:47 PM »
After doing some speaker swaps in my two cabs recently, I have figured out something I never would have thought: speaker swaps are a lot like pickup swaps! The Zilla Modern 2x12 that seems to be built to military tank-standards has a very deep and solid low end, more than most 4x12s I have played. Changing from Creamback 65s (Greenbacks with higher power handling and more low end) to V30s, the change was surprisingly subtile! The change was good though, the low end that could get a bit too much got more laid back, and the high end that was a bit too sweet got more cut.

What is your opinion on mixing speakers of different sensitivity? I was thinking about trying to mix a Creamback 65 and a V30, or a Creamback 65 and 75. Lots of people say that the louder one is the only thing they hear, so it might not be the best after all. I will certainly try the V30/CB75 mix though (similar to V30/H30)!
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Dave Sloven

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2016, 01:09:57 AM »
Apparently the V30 / CL80 combination works well in a closed back 212 ... never seen someone recommend it in a 412 though
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ericsabbath

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2016, 04:26:32 AM »
What is your opinion on mixing speakers of different sensitivity? I was thinking about trying to mix a Creamback 65 and a V30, or a Creamback 65 and 75. Lots of people say that the louder one is the only thing they hear, so it might not be the best after all. I will certainly try the V30/CB75 mix though (similar to V30/H30)!

bad idea, unless you have different sensitivity speakers that work on different frequency ranges
the v30 is a very dominating speaker
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Plenum n Heather

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2016, 02:43:04 PM »
If the sensitivity is within .5 - 2dB, it will be fine, though 2dB is pushing it. At 3dB, there will be a noticeable difference in output and the lower sensitivity speaker will be overshadowed. Add the good ol Fletcher-Munson curve, and depending on frequency response and SPL, it's possible that you will not hear any blend at all!

Alfi27

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2016, 07:21:19 PM »
What is your opinion on mixing speakers of different sensitivity? I was thinking about trying to mix a Creamback 65 and a V30, or a Creamback 65 and 75. Lots of people say that the louder one is the only thing they hear, so it might not be the best after all. I will certainly try the V30/CB75 mix though (similar to V30/H30)!

bad idea, unless you have different sensitivity speakers that work on different frequency ranges
the v30 is a very dominating speaker
Yeah, I guess that is why the T75 and V30 is a popular pairing even though they have different sensitivity. The Greenback, Creamback 65 and V30 work on similar ranges to a certain degree. The G12H30/Creamback 75 on the other hand have a slight mid scoop with more highs and lows than the V30, and the same sensitivity.

One speaker that I would love to try though, is the Scumback J75. Supposedly it is a combination of M75 and H75 (Greenback and G12H30), for people who want the sound of both blended in a 1x12" cab. Slightly more highs and lows than the M75 but not as much as the H75. 
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AnnunakiMassacr

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Re: Do I really need V30s? Equipment related thoughts
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2016, 11:13:49 PM »
I find the Creamback 75s are fantastic hard rock/metal speakers
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