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Author Topic: Modelling VS. Real amps  (Read 35290 times)

_tom_

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2006, 07:03:27 PM »
Quote from: sambo
^ well the crowd not caring about the tone works both ways:

you could argue that there was no point in getting a valve amp and few pedals because the crowd wouldnt tell the difference..

see?! thats what i mean by people not opening their eyes


Yeah thats true.. but what I meant was the "versatility" of these modellers etc, in my opinion you dont really need all the cr@p that you get with them. The only thing they are good for is recording direct in to the soundcard if you cant mic up a good amp..

And like Bird says, I use the valve amp and pedals route because I'd rather have one or two great sounds instead of hundreds of ok sounds.

sambo

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2006, 07:06:02 PM »
yer see your point...

but if the crowd cant tell the difference according to loadsa people on here, then surely direct recoding is not all their good for because crowds couldnt tell the difference between valve tone/modelling tone- which means their good for gigs as well...

see?

im not saying i believe any of this im just saying that the logic (or lack of) of some people one here just doesnt make any sense....

_tom_

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2006, 07:19:31 PM »
haha well I know what I mean anyway..

Basically I'd rather have a sound that I like, which is a valve amp, instead of a digital thing which I dont really like, even if the crowd cant tell the difference. Does that make sense? I hope so  :lol: Thats all my opinion anyway.

sambo

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2006, 07:27:52 PM »
yer i know what you mean- agree with you completely...

but then do you see how some people on here dont make sense?

thats whats really getting up my badger set....

Muttley

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2006, 07:42:43 PM »
I used the (very basic) amp modelling in my GT-5 as a pre-amp (going into a valve poweramp) for years, and recorded 2 demos with my old band with it.

It's not perfect, but you can get some very workable tones out of it for both live and studio work.

Muttley

sambo

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2006, 07:45:04 PM »
kool thanks muttley...

you wouldnt have those demos by any chane would you?

dave_mc

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2006, 07:54:38 PM »
Quote from: sambo
i dont see this obsession with valve amps.... its starting to annoy me...

its like people just refuse to accept that anything other than their big, fat valve amp can get any good sounds at all.....


It's not solely to do with sound though- it's to do with "feel" as well.

as a guy used to playing non-electrical instruments before i started guitar (piano and drums), valve amps are the only way i can really get the "feel" of a real instrument, the way an acoustic instrument reacts to your playing etc....

The fact that it sounds sweet is a bonus, lol.

SS stuff can feel (as well as sound) a bit synthetic sometimes...

I agree though, for the tones your after, a hot rod deluxe is probably not the best choice for you, lol. It's good for blues and cleans, but not much else, IMO- your Laney is probably better for the tones you want, lol. (i'm not trying to start a fight with _tom_ here, I know he loves his, and he's lucky that he's found an amp that suits him at a reasonable price!)

But that doesn't mean you don't want a valve amp, lol. Don't let your laney put you off valve amps if it doesn't have enough gain etc. Odds are you only need one or two tones to suit your style of playing, and they just happened to not be in the lc30- but that doesn't mean you need a modeller.

Oh and I agree with kilby/rob (rob kilby?), since he basically agreed with me, haha (point ceded on the SRV front too, I'm sure Dumble probably gave it to him for free or at cost, lol). During Easter (or heck, just next weekend) visit EVERY music shop you can- that way you can try out a heck of a lot more stuff, without them getting pissed off at you, lol (you just change shops after say an hour!). In your (rough) area, there's machinehead ( :lol: ), coda, wembley guitar centre, holiday music, flying pig, denmark street (about 10 different shops, so you can just go into each and try the same stuff, lol), sound control in oxford street, soho soundhouse, and probably a whole lot more I haven't thought of/heard of etc. The tube (the underground, not a valve :lol: ) is awesome too, you can buy an all-day ticket that'll get you to all those shops bar machinehead and coda for maybe £6 or £7 (from central London anyway, lol).

There's no point in wasting cash on a modeller if it won't do what you want (it might, I'm not saying it won't, lol)- at least a good valve amp that won't, as I've said already, you can get maybe 60-70% of your cash back on. Since you bought your laney second hand, you'll probably get back virtually what you paid for it, lol.

I'm a great believer in the "buy once" ethic. This is partly (more like mainly!) due to me getting caught out with "stopgap" solutions that basically sucked, and then I ended up having to buy the good (expensive) thing in the end anyway. If you know you want a high gain tube amp, for example, why waste £150, £200 or more on a modeller, if you'll still be gassing after a Krank/Engl/Framus/insert HC flavour of the month amp here after buying the modeller anyway? And then you're £200 further away from your dream amp, to add insult to injury...

And I wouldn't rush to sell the Laney till you have a new amp in your possession- I don't know about you, but I'd rather have that Laney than no amp, lol.

As for GAS- I'm seriously struggling to control mine, lol. I'm just lucky that my procrastination/laziness tendencies outweigh the overwhelming GAS I have at the moment, :lol:

It may look like I'm trying to make you buy a tube amp (I'm trying to control my bias, lol, honest), but I just don't want you to rush from buying a laney lc30 (how long have you had it? 3 months?) to rushing into buying something else that might not do what you want either- I know at 15 there aren't many options to make money, and you need to spend what you have wisely (I suppose in a way I was lucky I didn't start till 18- not from the playing point of view, though!). As I and Kilby have said, I think the best thing you can do is just say "I'm not buying anything for 6 months" (or even longer) to take the pressure off. then you can try stuff out and actually really appreciate what you want to get, it's not just random GAS any more.

Another thing to remember is, don't be bowled over by the high gain tube amps either. I know I love how high gain the engls get, but i use the metalcore-type tone maybe 10% of the time- whereas when I was trying them out in the shop I was using it all the time, because I wasn't used to being able to get those tones- silly grin time in other words. Don't let silly grin syndrome get the better of you either, lol (i was just lucky that the amp I got can do the metalcore tones, plus lots of others too).

wow, I'm such a spammer, lol.

Hope that helped!

dave_mc

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2006, 07:59:01 PM »
Quote from: sambo
but if the crowd cant tell the difference according to loadsa people on here, then surely direct recoding is not all their good for because crowds couldnt tell the difference between valve tone/modelling tone- which means their good for gigs as well...

see?

im not saying i believe any of this im just saying that the logic (or lack of) of some people one here just doesnt make any sense....


it doesn't really matter what the crowd thinks though (as long as they don't think you suck, lol)- if YOU hate your tone, you won't play as well. Also, there's the feel thing, which has nothing to do with the crowd. I'd play a westfield, since the crowd couldn't tell the difference between it and a real strat, but I know a real strat will sound/play/stay in tune etc. a lot better.

sambo

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2006, 08:10:39 PM »
wow.... thanks dave... really informative! good spamming lol

yer i spose you and rob and right... trying stuff is where i need to be at now...

and im by no means set on a modeller... im open to all angles... its just the single-mindedness of other people is getting to me...

and the valve amp thing... this is a question not a statement... im not like trying to prove anything with this- this is genuine...

isnt the 'feel' of a valve amp the projection? I.E cab or amp speakers?

i know some is from tone but isnt most of it just brute force?

thanks again for the awesome post - really appreciate it

HTH AMPS

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2006, 08:11:23 PM »
I would say that modelling amps give you access to ALOT of cool tones.  From my experience I'd say that the cleans can be great - the Line6 SpiderII head I had did a great Fender Twin clean tone (and the cranked blues tone that emulation gave was spot on too).  The Hiwatt tone from the Line6 was spot on too - that boxy midrange was captured perfectly. The ultra-high-gain tones were spot on too, huge tight bass and more volume than you'll ever need.

Where they all fall down though is in the midrange - thats why its the clean and mega-gain tones that work so well.  The Marshall plexi & JCM800 tones just didn't have 'it', abour 60% 'there'.

For the money, they give alot of cool tones and you can't argue with the price at all.

That said, if you're mainly playing 'rock', you'd be hard pushed to beat a nice valve amp.  Checkout a DSL50 - they are going very cheap at the minute on ebay.

 :twisted:

Muttley

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2006, 08:11:52 PM »
Quote from: sambo
kool thanks muttley...

you wouldnt have those demos by any chane would you?


http://www.muttleyville.org/mymusic.htm

All the BushPilots tracks basically.  My rhythm guitar parts are panned left in most (if not all) of them.

Other stuff done with the GT-5:

Time To Stand - Synthy Intro, Intro Solo,
Defunk (really cr@p song I didn't want to record): melody lick throughout, left guitar in harmony part
Free - Middle Solo
Wishful Thinking - Tremelo parts, Middle Solo
Stay Away - Synthy Intro, Middle Solo
24hrs - Intro Riff, 2nd Solo

Basic tracks were recorded live, just overdubs for the vocals and leads (not-including the harmony bit in Defunk which was done live).

Guitars for my bits were my SG, JEM7BSB and Mark's (other guitarst) Yamaha Pacifica for the tremelo bits in Wishful Thinking.

Muttley

sambo

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2006, 08:13:50 PM »
excellent cheers muttley...

and im gonna check out that DSL50 now HTH... interesting on your perception of modellers.... which ones (multi-fx/modeller e.t.c) have you used?

dave_mc

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2006, 08:23:47 PM »
Quote from: sambo
(a)wow.... thanks dave... really informative! good spamming lol

(b)isnt the 'feel' of a valve amp the projection? I.E cab or amp speakers?

i know some is from tone but isnt most of it just brute force?

thanks again for the awesome post - really appreciate it


(a) no problem man, glad to be of assistance, :D

(b) I don't think so (at least not in my opinion). 95%+ of the time I'm playing my engl, I'm playing at bedroom volume or very slightly higher (no poweramp influence in there at all), and the feel is there. I describe the "feel" as the way the instrument reacts to your playing- you can get a lot more nuances in your playing.

I know with acoustic instruments, if you want to get more energy/angst/emo ( ;) ) into your playing, you have to hit the thing harder, and likewise play softer etc. for different moods and tones. To me, you can do that with valves too.

Of course, SS will do it to a certain extent, but nowhere near as well.

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that maybe I've only tried cr@ppy SS amps.

:lol:

sambo

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2006, 08:28:49 PM »
oh i see what you mean now...

lol...

well i dunno how much that bothers me at the moment... i mean... i havent picked up on that yet.... probably becaus ive tried barely any amps (SS or valve) at all....

only thing im worried about, (at the moment) is being disappointed with the tone/sound of a modeller compared to 'the real thing'... although i havent played any of 'the real things' myself so i dont think id be able to tell that much.... id just be comparing a modeller to pro artists' sound... and with my untrained ears i may not be able to tell THAT much of a difference... i dunno... i still need to try stuff..

i would have by now but i had band practice today

dave_mc

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Modelling VS. Real amps
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2006, 08:31:12 PM »
^you can even try it with your laney- set the gain to a level where it'll break up/overdrive if you hit the strings hard, and will be clean if you pick lightly, and see what you think.

Valves also tend to clean up better with the guitar's volume knob, but I don't use it much, since I'm used to acoustic instruments, lol.

Everything's on 10, all the time, with me, lol.

 :twisted: