Help me understand this...

[GuitarIv]

Okay, so today I've been to my local music store to get some new strings and as I had some time to waste I figured I could as well try out some amps...

I entered the room and instantly focused on the Orange PPC 412, been looking for a cab with Vintage 30s for a while now and these heavy fokkers have a reputation for being awesome. Next up I scanned the amps they had there and I decided to try an Engl Powerball (Mk2), the infamous Peavey 6505+ (newer made in china version) and the EVH 5150 III 100 Watter. Got an ESP Eclipse II with your typical EMG 81/60 combo off the wall, asked for a cable and gave it a go.

I was... dissapointed. There are so many things racing through my head right now I'll try to write them all down.

Let's start with the amps first: The Powerball. Ah, the amp that probably causes a lot of love/hate relationships, deemed as scooped sounding, overcompressed and prone to get lost in a band mix. I have an Engl Savage 60 I absolutely loved whilst it was working (gonna get it repaired soon) so I wanted to see if the Powerball is that much different in voicing. Well, the Engl tightness was there for sure (played all the amps without a tubescreamer boosting them), the cleans were a bit sterile but I liked them, good foundation for delay/reverb and I was shocked how much gain that thing had on tap. Now I didn't even move on to the second channel (Lead 1, Lead 2) yet, it was pretty mind boggling that I had enough saturation with the gain turned up midway on the effin crunch channel for heavy riffing and thrash stuff. I liked where this was going and switched over to the lead channels. Awful.

Now there are two things are stuck in my mind (was pretty much the same with the Peavey and the EVH), first of all, waaaay too much gain. I play a boosted JCM 2000 DSL 100 at home and never pass the 5 on the gain pot, with the Lead Channel this was overkill for me and the gain was set on like 2-3. Granted I didn't play too much with the EQ, I tried to suck out some lows and add presence and mids and it helped, but this brings me to the second problem: the sound seemed muffled. I think I'm trying to say too many low mids, but I'm not sure. Needles to say it didn't get any better on Lead 2. Too much compression, I felt like my notes and chords where being reduced to mush and I missed that bitey yet clear and full "ching" I like so much and seem to get with my DSL. Call me crazy.

Anyway, fired up the 6505+ next. Spent a minute on the cleans which weren't all that bad people make them out to be and engaged the crunch. Better than the ENGL Lead Channels although not as bright and tight as the Powerballs Crunch channel. I felt like the Peavey would have really benefited being boosted with a Tubescreamer but I didn't want to go trough the hassle of getting one. Moved on to the Lead... liked it better than the PBs Lead channel yet again... oversaturated and too mushy...

Last head was the 5150 III. This one had the best clean sound to my ears out of the three and I really liked it. Moved on to the Blue Channel and again I didn't feel any need to move the gain pot past the 3-4 mark. It sounded quite biting (way more focused in the highs it seemed to me) and I'm sure a Tubescreamer would have been great, however on the Red channel I had the same problem as with the previous two heads.

My conclusion: give me all those three amps with a proper clean channel and the crunch and remove the lead channels. I'd be a happy man. Yeah I know the Lead channels are for leads, but the compression, oversaturation and gain was too much for me. I'd rather kick in an external EQ or boost for my leads.

What I don't understand is why my setup at home sounds soo much better for me. My ears being used to it? Do I actually hate V30s? (I know they need to be broken in first); Did I finally pass that teenage phase where it was all about high gain heads and teh metulz? Why was there so much mud?

Now before I risk people telling me I EQ differently at home (scooped mids yadayada) or I don't appreciate a good high gain amp here's my current setup:

A Gibson LP Studio with the EMG 57/66 set in E-Standard and 10-52 Elixir Strings, A 2004 Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 100 boosted with a Bad Monkey or Ibanez TS-9DX and probably the most important ingredient: a Marshall JCM 800 1960 Lead Cab with old, broken in Made in England Celestion G12-65 speakers with the lead cone. Every Amp I played through this cab has sounded amazing so far, this includes a Peavey Valveking, a Jet City JCA50H, an Orange Micro Terror, the ENGL Savage 60 and my DSL.

My settings are bass pulled back to 3, mids on 8, Treble Noon and Presence on 7 or higher depending on the channel and the volume. Mid Cut and Low Boost always disengaged. As already mentioned, this gives me a nice warm yet clear sound. I'm able to palm mute without having too much bass, everything stays tight and together even when playing triplets and thrashing away on some Metallica, Megadeath, Revocation or Sylosis tunes, the chords and open notes have plenty of bite and crunch yet never get piercing and leads sing and sustain. Needless to say with my MXR 10 Band in the loop I can pretty much fine tune everything I need.

The last few weeks I discovered another amazing way to play the head: Channel 1 on Clean, the Master dimed and the Pre-Amp/Gain control used for volume. Engage the Tubescreamer and I have all the dynamics I need and the notes just punch you in the face. Gary Moore lead sound. The only gain coming from the Tubescreamer (and the hot pickups obviously). I think I'm finally ready to look in the exact opposite direction regarding a new amp: the JCM 800. Less gain and more tone. Now if I could only find a store that has one...


I'm really sorry for the wall of text but I feel this could turn into a rather interessting discussion, so feel free to chime in and tell me what you think! Cheers! 

[gwEm]

I wasn't sure what to reply to you, since you kind of answer yourself in the text ;)

We have those exact Orange cabs in our practice rooms and they sound fine. Not awesome or anything, but I'm perfectly happy. I would say they fall into the upper tier of cabinets.

As you say, cab construction, break-in time etc all play a part. I will say that I can usually get a sound I at least find decent out of any of the nicer Celestion speakers - not the bargain/cheap OEM type ones.

Hands down the best cabs I've tried are Mesa Boogie ones with Electro Voice speakers, but they weigh an absolute tonne.

Vintage 30s do have a sound, not the worst sound, pretty good. I prefer them mixed with G12H speakers.

I do think American amps like Peaveys and Mesas sound better with American speakers.

Buying a JCM800 is never a bad idea. I'm always delighted to see one of those at a venue. I'll never sell my 2204. One of those goosed with a Boss OD-1 is probably still my favourite tone.

[Dave Sloven]

I have a Peavey 6534+ through an Orange PPC412.  I also have a cheaper Ashton 412 with the same speakers, Chinese-made Celestion Vintage 30s.  There is a recent video of me using them in a full stack in the players section of the forum.

The Ashton was second-hand and sounded well broken in when I bought it six months ago.

The Orange sounded like cr@p until it was broken in.  I think V30s tend to have very stiff cones until they are broken in.  I played it for AGES before it was broken in. WHY?  Because I was playing it at lame 'home' levels for the first six or eight months that I had it.

Then someone said 'try playing it at gigging volumes at home when you get the chance' (I wasn't using it at band practices because there was a cab at the practice space and no-one wants to lug a PPC412 if they don't have to, and my band didn't have a full lineup for playing live for the first year) and that really made all the difference.  I cranked the lead channel on my amp up to 2.5/3.0 and would play like that for a couple of hours at the time when the neighbours weren't home.  If you can't do that then start taking it to the practice spot. They need to be played at gigging volumes or they will NEVER break in properly.  Once I started doing that they broke in fairly quickly and soon sounded sweet, like you would expect from their reputation.

Believe me when I tell you that the Orange PPC412 has its reputation as the best cab to pair with the Peavey 5150/6505 series for a reason.  It really sounds great.

I have an MXR 10-band EQ but it is set pretty flat. My lead channel is set up Pre 4.5, Low 5.0, Mid 5.5 or 6.0 (depending on which cab I am using), High 7.0 usually with Resonance and Presence varying depending on whether I am using the Orange or the Ashton.  With the Orange I generally have Resonance set at 4.0 and Presence at 6.0

I play in band with a bassist using an old Peavey Mark series bass amp with a full stack (410+115) and him generally into the desk too and we seem to get an okay sound tuned to C standard.

I would recommend having a look at the 6534+ ... it doesn't need a tube screamer.

What I find Peavey 6505 series amps all need is noise reduction.  I use an ISP Technologies Decimator G-String II.  The 10-band EQ is popular but like I said I tend to run mine pretty flat so it's really not that crucial.  I then have all the usual effects (and then some) ... the only ones really that you need to be careful with are delay and reverb.  I find that the Earthquaker Devices Ghost Echo and the Boss RV-5 (or RV-6) both work well with it, but apparently some don't.  Like most people using these amps I run an MXR Carbon Copy delay but I also have a Boss DD-7 and find that works well.  I've heard bad reports with some others like the Flashback.  In general I find TC Electronics pedals don't work very well with this amp.  Not sure why.  They just sound kind of cruddy and artefacted.

I spend most of my time with the lead channel.  I don't use the rhythm channel much except in very clean mode, with the gain right down and bright engaged.  I think it sounds pretty nice.  Apparently it is the best clean out of the 6505 series.  The JSX/XXX2 apparently has the best cleans out of their high-gain amps. I put it through an MXR Black Label Chorus and an MXR EVH Flanger sometimes with good results

The one effect that I have never liked with this amp is compression.  I don't like it much on the clean channel either.

I never use the crunch switch but a lot of people like it.

I don't really boost my leads but I am in a one guitar band and everyone says I am loud as hell anyway.  I don't play many leads and most of them are on the neck pickup with the Carbon Copy engaged

[dave_mc]

Well I mean to be fair you were using EMGs I guess they figure they have to voice the lead channel to have enough gain at lower volumes for people who are using lower output pickups and single coils.

[GuitarIv]

Yeah, I can totally see the point with the EMGs, high output pickups into a high gain amp seems to be the wrong way to go, I do like them with my DSL though, my Painkiller always seems a bit weak going into the Marshall, had to compensate with the gain knob. The tones I got from the PK into my Savage on the other hand... were just savage, lol.

I mean to be honest it isn't really a fair judgement, just my impression of noodling around for an hour in a music shop. It took me a while to find the right EQ settings and sweet spots on all of the amps I owned so far, so I'm sure if I had any of those high gainers at home sooner or later I would get them to sound right. I just seem to be more of the plug and play kind of guy by now, that's what I love about the simple control layout on both my ENGL and the Marshall head and why the idea of owning a 2203 becomes more and more tempting.

I do have a pair of Celestion Vintage 30s coming next month, found them used online and I will put them into the JCM 800 Cab to give me a bit more aggression and bite in contrast to the G12-65s, very stoked to try this as I never experimented with different speakers so far. The 65s do have a sensitivity of 97db contrary to the 100dbs of the V30s so it might turn out to be a total failure, but I'll report back with results and see how it goes. If I don't like it I can always keep them for later cab upgrades or just sell them with no loss.

In regards to cabinets: I noticed a massive increase in price with all Mesa Boogie products on Thomann, the Recto cabs that were somewhere around 1200 Euros now cost almost 2 grands, same with their heads. So I don't see myself gettig any of those anytime soon. On the other hand there are plenty of used 1960s around that go for as little as 350 bucks, so I've been toying around with the idea of getting one of those, X-pattern the V30s with the stock G12-75s and seal the gaps with silicone (and whatnot you can do to upgrade them). I'd love to have the Orange PPC, but it doesn't come with wheels since they have this special wood skids that attach them to the floor, the ENGL Pros on the other hand do have wheels but aren't that common to come across in Austria, plenty of them in Germany used but it's a pain in the butt to drive there and lose several hours just to inspect a piece of equipment you might end up not liking/buying.

Any of you have some experiences with the 1960s X-patterned and if they will do fine for tight aggressive riffing (the G12-65s sound awesome but are a bit too laid back at times) or do I really need the extra of those expensive, built like tanks cabs?

[Dave Sloven]

I will probably fit the Ernie Ball (i.e., Penn-Elcom) removable casters to my PPC412 eventually.  I have them on my Ashton (which is what I use for practices and gigs, only once taking the PPC412 for a full stack since getting the Ashton) and they work well, but the PPC412 is a big awkward cab and you will always need someone to help you when lifting is required.  If you are strong enough you can lift a smaller cab like my Ashton, but the straight-front PPC412 is too bulky unless you are very tall.  The Ernie Ball wheels will fit there with the skids intact.

The ENGL Pro is a beautiful cab but from what I have heard are very directional, although the same can be said of the straight front PPC412. The ENGL is very heavy but a bit less bulky.

Live I don't think you need a really rigid cab like an Orange or ENGL.  There is a lot going on soundwise and the differences can be worked out with EQ.  I do recommend them for recording though.

I will say that the Orange cab has sold me on V30s for this particular application and type of amp.

I do use a fair amount of gain though.  A lot of it comes from the pickups (Warpigs and Nailbombs) and a boost (MXR/CAE Boost/Linedriver set to 9 o'clock) going into V1 and the rest is the pre-gain in the lead channel, which as I said I don't set too high as Peavey's can get a bit loose with too much preamp gain.  I sort of divide the gain structure between the input tube and the gain stages in the preamp.

That said I can still get a fairly decent clean sound with those pickups (generally the neck, which is lower output) without turning the boost off.  I do have the pre gain on the rhythm channel down a very long way though, from memory around 1 or just over, and boost the post gain to compensate for the lack of volume from the pre.

[Slartibartfarst42]

I find your post very interesting because for me, it highlights a real issue with a lot of guitar gear at the moment as well as many young guitarists. The basic issue is that we're becoming obsessed with gain and maximum power. It's the Jeremy Clarkson approach to music. Every successive amp has to have yet more gain piled into it but while I love gain, it's clear you can have too much of a good thing. Too much gain gives you mush - fact. This issue is then made worse with guitars loaded with ever more powerful pickups. I'm tiring of threads asking for pickup suggestions that have to be from the hottest pups BKP make and will be played at maximum volume, through amps with masses of gain set at high gain settings. If you have a high gain amp, you DON'T need high powered pickups. Is it any wonder that people complain they need something 'tighter' when they're playing through a rig like that!!! Of course, it's a market led process, which is why BKP seem to keep adding endless new high output pickups to try to satisfy this demand and these pickups get hotter, tighter and ultimately soulless and sterile. When I started using BKP, I liked pretty much everything they did, even if it wasn't for me but these days there are some pickups in the range that, I'm sorry, I just don't like at all. My last couple of amps (Orange TH30 and Atomic AmpliFire) have more than enough gain available for me and as a result, I've started using, and preferring, pickups that might be found in the Vintage or Vintage Hot sections. I can't think of anything at the moment that really interests me from the contemporary section. This is why I'd like to see BKP offer more in the Vintage and Vintage Hot sections and for amps to dial back the amount of gain available a little.

[richard]

Couple of years back I was rehearsing in a place that had a lot of Marshalls available - DSL, Jubilee and 900 mainly. I found the 'lead'channels on all of them to be absolutely horrible. The best I could do was max the gain on the clean channel and use an o/d pedal for leads. This worked pretty well particularly on the 900 which could kick out a pretty vintage sounding Marshall crunch tone. Similar to your experience with the lead channels of the amps you tried.

[GuitarIv]

Glad to read I'm not the only one who made these observations.

What I seem to understand more and more is that most players when they start out confuse good playing technique with gain. Best example that comes to my mind is Gary Moore: I always loved his tone, his playing and the dynamics he had. One moment he would shred on that Les Paul like there was no tomorrow, the next moment his fingers would lower that volume pot and the whole band would follow lead and become quieter as he played those tasty notes, slow and soft, controlling everything with picking and the turn of a knob. As soon as he dug in and exploded into the next section of sonic mayhem the drummer, the bassist, the horn section, the whole band did the same and it sounded amazing.

I always had the impression that he was using heaps of distortion. I now understand that he had an amazing technique and a very clean setting on his amps. As said a few weeks ago I tried a new approach with my DSL: Instead of cooking the preamp section and using the Master as a volume control I did it the other way around: Crank the Power amp section and use the gain knob as a volume control. First thing I noticed was a massive increase in picking dynamics (even with the EMG 57/66 set), and the notes would just sustain although there was no distortion, just the 4 EL34s cranked doing their job. I took my Bad Monkey Overdrive, cranked the gain and the level on it and as soon as I stomped on it there it was: That endless sustaining note in Parisienne Walkways, that awesome intro to Still got the Blues and all the tone I always chased after.

Now I do play a lot of styles, ranging from Blues all the way to Hard Rock, 80's Tunes and modern Thrash, but the more I delve into the matter the more I understand the saying that tone is in the fingers and not in the gear you use. Switching to 10-52s in E-Standard was painful at first, now I can't play any lighter strings anymore without feeling like the guitar is stringed with rubber bands. What started as a painful experience at first has rewarded me with a better tone, stronger hands and more control. Apply that to a moderately overdriven amp with a boost up front with the poweramp pumping some volume and you have all you need. The others members of the band take care of the rest.

When you hear a record (talking about metal) you hear something that's totally different to what works in a real life setting. A high gain amp might approximate that recorded sound when you're by yourself but doesn't do the trick when recording or playing in a band, I did a demo of my Miracle Man a while ago where I took a guitar sound that was so low gained it was a pain in the butt to play (had to be accurate as hell), but I quad tracked everything and this was the result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7qxFJg1i7w

It sounds way fatter and gainier than what I used. The quad tracking and the drums (even though it's just the GP6 Sound Engine) do the trick. One of the reasons why I feel like I want a JCM 800. If you can get metal sounds out of it with the help of a boost pedal and a decent technique (like the guys in the 80s did it) you're golden. Lasse Lammerts clip convinced me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMY4PSk6LFs


I'm sorry if I went a bit offtopic there, it's just what came to my mind right now reading what Slart and Richard wrote haha. 

edit: I'm drunk right now so I'll just try to sum up my conclusion of this post: sometimes less is more. A low output pickup into a high gain amp, a high output pickup into boosted a low gain amp and lots of practice until you have the technique where you sound good no matter what you play. If I remember correctly Gary once said I'll play whatever you want me to if you endorse me (pay me money) to do it. He always sounded like Gary Moore.

Cheers! 

[Slartibartfarst42]

Ah, Gary Moore. My absolute favourite guitarist.

I also used to think he used plenty gain and I remember being really surprised when I discovered he didn't but clearly it helps if you have godly technique, which sadly I don't. He remains one of the most incredible guitarists I've ever seen live. Jeff Healey was the other one who REALLY blew me away with what he could do on a guitar.

[gwEm]

Ah, Gary Moore. My absolute favourite guitarist.

I also used to think he used plenty gain and I remember being really surprised when I discovered he didn't but clearly it helps if you have godly technique, which sadly I don't. He remains one of the most incredible guitarists I've ever seen live. Jeff Healey was the other one who REALLY blew me away with what he could do on a guitar.

It certainly sounds like Gary Moore used plenty of gain on the Monsters of Rock album.

Agree he had godly technique, he was incredible.

[GuitarIv]

Ha! Glad to see so much love for one of the greatest guitar players to ever walk this earth 

[dave_mc]

Yeah, I can totally see the point with the EMGs, high output pickups into a high gain amp seems to be the wrong way to go,

I don't think it's the wrong way to go if you like that sound, just it's likely to be pretty compressed and will make most high gainers sound like they have crazy amounts of gain.

[GuitarIv]

Yup. I like the way the EMGs push my Marshall, but going into those high gainers... not so much.