UK Passport holders

[Dakine]

Makes total sense don't it? Those taking the oath to serve and protect getting skeered!
I work with the police here (actually have an ID and badge and all, am a Diver volunteer). Here they are more interested in their "second job" and the money it can make them. "If ya don't like the job why did ya take it to start with?"!!!!!!!!! Most are also so unfit that if it aint a car chase ya might as well forget it.

Too many issues here to get me upset (esp. as have 1st. hand exp.).
My grandfather was Chief Superintendant in South Wales, this cr@p did NOT happen in his day!

[Searcher]

oh and about the war just now that you mentioned it... is anyone else on here for the war? i am.....

Ya know, Sam, I'm not gonna answer this one way or the other.  I'm well informed, but I'm gonna pass.  It's ok when we're railing against a common enemy (i.e., our governments--lol!), but when we start to introduce topics like this it creates huge arguments and fights between forum members.  And I, for one, am happy to be able to avoid that cr@p here at BKP.  Just IMHO.

[sambo]

yer fair enough mark... to be honest i didnt really expect anyone to say... it seems common practice on forums to not mention political issues like that from what ive seen so far...

[willo]

and do you know what played a big part in that? the massive influx of immigrants/new religions entering the UK... everyones so worried to say/do anything that could be accused of being racist/discriminative towards a muslim/jew/christian/black person/whatever... its stupid.... im not saying we should all be racist or anything stupid, but its ridiculous... i cant explain it all...

No, they aren't...in some places there is a certain fear, but that is justifiable with the responsibility such positions of power carry. I agree to a certain extent that there is too much PC'ness about, but I fail to see what is wrong with being considerate to another person's beliefs/values? The recent furore over the cartoons is a good case in point - as an agnostic, I can't justify the overly-violent response, but reading around the Islamic faith - and given the constant socio-political Islamaphobia and misrepresentation through the media, I can understand why some people felt very angry about it. Now, of course, someone's probably thinking, 'Well why can't 'they' respect 'us'?', to which I reply, that if we constantly paint ourselves as the 'civilised nations' then it us who should be taking the higher ground - the human race should be above tit-for-tat, and if it is in our capacity to rise above, then we should, regardless of what other people are doing.

So what caused fear of immigrants? Not the immigrants themselves, for sure. It became an issue because it was a good way for politicians to score points and a good way for newspapers to sell more copies. Let's be honest, how many immigrants do you know? How many problems have you had? But without immigrants, this country would fall apart - we need the labour that they willingly provide.

IBy the year 2015 or summit close, Spanish will be the #1 language in USA.

Nope; it might be spoken more but you certainly aren't going to be hearing it in the corridors of the White House - hence it won't ever be #1. Don't you think that the Welsh have battled this which we, the English, inflicted on them? Given that America is actually a settled nation borne of immigration, I find the lack of tolerance ridiculous. I know, I don't live there, but you know what is the same all over the world? A human being is a human being. They deserve your respect whatever their accent, skin colour, beliefs whatever. If we can't even provide that, then we (as the West) do not have the right to call ourselves 'civilised'.

This has all existed before; new religions in the UK? What about the split between Catholicism and Protestantism? Immigration in the US? What about the pioneers? My point is that all these problems have happened before and we can keep going on fighting about it, killing each other, or we could actually try and work out a solution. I think a good first step towards that is empathy and understanding. Apparently though, it's easier for people (I mean, the general populace within this country) to be paranoid and antagnostic.

[Dakine]

Willo
WRONG
#1 I AM Welsh
#2 How long before a Mexican President? NOT long due to mexican immigration.

I will for last time put my ONLY real point here.

If ya wanna move country abide by IT'S Laws and Customs!!!!!!!!!!

If you want to bring your own language/customs/religion/ethics then fine, but do NOT expect the country YOU moved to to bend over backwards to accomodate your wishes!

I have NO problem with ANY race. I greatly respect many too. Just do not agree with policies which do not conform with the countries laws/culture/tradition.

[willo]

Hey man, I don't disagree with you completely - I do agree that people should try and abide by the customs of the country they move to, but at the same time I'm proud of the diversity of my country and I wouldn't want to lose that, to forcibly stamp out other cultures in the misguided notion of some 'Britishness'.

I disagree that it will be 'not long' for a Mexican President; it's only been white males for quite a while. I don't see that changing - or at least to the point of a Mexican president - in our lifetimes. Maybe it will, who knows? Tony Blair grew up in Australia.  Gordon Brown's Scottish.

I don't understand so much what it matters to the discussion that you are Welsh? My point was that, historically speaking, there has been an opposition towards English language in Wales, that still persists in parts today. This leads to my greater point, that humanity is caught in a big cycle, and it makes me sad to see my society becoming more divided. Class is an issue again, on the news. It's sad. But I do agree pretty much with what you say in your post above; that seems fair. I think sometimes, though (and believe me, I'm not implying you here) that people get so opposed to it that it falls into hatred. This division is what scares me most in society, you can feel it coming. :(

Most of us are immigrants, if you trace it back long enough. For what it's worth, I have Welsh, English and Norwegian blood in me. And what made our countries and societies so good is a spirit of acceptance, and as such I think laws against offending other cultures aren't so much against the tradition.

I'd also like to add one last thing - this isn't meant, in any way, to be a personal thing. I'm glad we can have a good discussion from two different standpoints - it's interesting. I just wouldn't want someone to misread and get the wrong impression, that kind of thing seems to happen a lot on  the internet.  :?  So, roll on free speech!  :D

[sambo]

Ian, i agree with a lot of what you said there... but respect is very different to, as nick said, bending over backwards to accomodate a groups ways...

for example, would you expect to be able to go to the Middle East (some parts) and act like a Westerner? no... the UK is too tolerant in my opinion... sure allow people in if they wanna come, and like you said their labour e.t.c is vital... but that doesnt mean that the immigrants should be treated specially.

"but I fail to see what is wrong with being considerate to another person's beliefs/values?"

considerate, yes, people should be allowed to practice their religion e.t.c of course... but its a different matter i was talking about; about the immigrants acting as if they are under attack all the time and being annoyed that some laws dont allow them to behave in certain ways...... like i said before, if i went to live in Iran or somewhere, i wouldnt protest about the laws for being able to have more than one wife.... im not gonna say "your government is wrong" when its their laws/customs/beliefs...

and as for the protestant/catholic thing... yer sure, but that was civil- nothing to do with immgration... ok so there was two conflicting groups with different opinions, but look what happened in the end.... : one side 'won'.... and that groups opinions was adopted as the law... thats what it boils down to...

theres too much stuff to reply to im getting confused... this is such a broad topic.... but in the end what i think it boils down to... is theres never, NEVER going to be harmony within a cuontry like UK when there are so many cultures/religions alongside one another... the laws DO NOT WORK when there parts of the population have a fundamental disbelief in a certain rule/law/regulation...

EDIT: this was to your second to last post Ian, sorry slow typing  :lol:  :oops:

just wanted to add:

yer i think my summary = the laws of a country should be decided by the majority, and the minoritys (without being trampled on/stamped out/gotten rid of/discriminated against) should accept those laws, whilst still being allowed to practice their beliefs as much as they like.

[Dakine]

Cool
thats all I wanted to say, about NO special treatment.

And I believe a Mexican Presidant IS looming.

Check this, just a pretty good example.

In a nutshell. When I got my residency (green card). Close to the end I had my fingerprints taken. At this point you are nearly there. I was in a line with about 50 others that day. An official comes out and says "only the appointment holder is allowed in UNLESS they need an interpretor". Apart from me (and I kid you not) they ALL filed in two by two! This says, that even doing it the "legal" way, many do NOT speak English (the national language).
This is relavent here.
Law Enforcement are mandated to take "rudimentory Spanish" as part of their training. Now, that is NOT literate Spanish, just enough to converse/get by, and MANY people suck at their own language let alone a foreign one.
Well a Spanish (mexican) lady calls Dispatch in a real tizzy as her infant son is not breathing. She speaks NO English and is talking fluent and fast Spanish. Upshot, she could not be understood and by the time the call was traced (instead of giving a verbal location) the kid was dead!
This, to my mind is a better indicator of my point.
I love the diversity of cultures (lord knows I have travelled enough). I love different foods, ideas, arts, music. BUT, a country needs some kind of Indentity and platform to work from which is adhered to and understood by ALL it's residents. Otherwise chaos ensues.

Alot of recent immigration (legal or otherwise) is a case of "the grass is greener on the other side". This places undue stress and hardship upon native residents of that country (I am NOT going back through history, we all get the viking, spanish, aborigines stories, and they are sad!) but recent history. I have spoken to East and West Berliners. Many East (well ex. East) Berliners now wish the wall had never come down. They were excited by the possibilities over the wall, but once the wall did not exist they are having a hard time integrating into what is almost a foreign culture to them. Also not a little resentment from some of the West Berliners. Human nature is just so, and like it or not most have charity but only to a degree.

The one thing I love about the UK (and am proud of) is the culture. I simply cannot fathom losing that. We are now linked to Europe with a bloody tunnel! We are allowing (or were so sorry if am wrong now) Seikh religons to wear turbans instead of "tits" for Police Uniform as it is "their" religion! I imagine (silly as it may look) the Bobbie Helmet was designed for a purpose.

Basically I am all for diversity but do NOT want to lose National Heritage/Culture due to over assimulation of foreign born nationals.

[willo]

I agree man, about not losing the identity of the country. For me - this was huge debate after the bombings - the identity of britain is largely defined by its diversity, its willingness to take from other cultures and bring them into our own. In my opinion, that is the part of the culture which I want to lose least, so when I end up reading Kilroy in the Daily Mail or whatever, spreading messages of anti-integration, I do despair and wonder where are we going...

Regarding immigration, its just a wierd argument to be having...the world, as we know, is shrinking. McDonalds and other vestiges of the West are dotted all over the world. English is becoming the 'global' language. I mean, we've been economically pushing our cultures onto other cultures for long enough now. So we give a little, we take a little - thats the ideal, I think - even though its probably not happening. I think, however, we will lose our national identity over time, but whether thats because of globalisation or immigration, only time will tell.

[Afghan Dave]

a Mexican President IS looming

Yes I guess that's true - in Mexico.

If you mean that one day a US president may be of Mexican extraction, well if and when that happens I'd consider him/her to be an American.

The fear of a black or female president seems to have taken a back seat.

Back to ID cards.

All diversity in both nature and political / cultural debate is healthy - arguments are tested and the weak and the false perish.

The removal of civil liberties skews this natural selection stifles debate and diversity.

We have nothing to fear from diversity if our liberty to challenge other beliefs is defended.

Rowan Atkinson made the point best when he appeared before the Parliament select committee fighting the Legislation Against Inciting Religious Hatred.

If I ridicule another person because of their race, their sex or their age this is morally wrong – these are attributes of the person themselves which they do not choose and cannot change.

If I disagree with somebody because they believe that the Earth is flat / Follow L. Ron Hubbard / Jesus / Moses / Mohammad / Buddha / Krishna – these are beliefs or faiths and should be tested and commented upon without fear.

Most religions preach, most politicians rally and in a free society this should happen organically without the need of State licence or approval.

There will never be another Eden in any country and we are all the better for it. We should never look at our cultures, take a snapshot and try to preserve it like a museum piece.

I look back at the England I grew up in and I miss it a lot, some things were much better but a hell of a lot was much worse.

Like it or not each of us ARE BECOMING OUTDATED...

What we must do is ensure that the generations yet to come have the freedom to disagree and change OUR countries into THEIR countries.

If the values we treasure are worthy, in a free society they will survive.

Have some faith in the future and let’s not fool ourselves looking at the past through rose tinted glasses.

[sambo]

"If I ridicule another person because of their race, their sex or their age this is morally wrong – these are attributes of the person themselves which they do not choose and cannot change.

If I disagree with somebody because they believe that the Earth is flat / Follow L. Ron Hubbard / Jesus / Moses / Mohammad / Buddha / Krishna – these are beliefs or faiths and should be tested and commented upon without fear."

+1... nice summary dave.

about the mexican president thing though... if a mexican emigrated to the US, then became president, i would still consider them a mexican.... (unless of course they were brought up in the US from a very early age or something... but even then im not sure). Just perception i guess.

[Afghan Dave]

If there ever were a Black Mexican Lady President I'd bet she'd have to be so ultra conservative she'd make Condoleezza Rice look like Missy Elliiot...

Think how Maggie over-compensated... she was more man than any in her cabinet..

Fight the power....

[monkeywalker]

i agree with nick totally.whats wrong with the country!! everything is so PC these days, if someone does something trivial wrong, don't be so bloody soft andtake them down to the station and report it, tw@t em round the back of the head with a shoe or something.

this country is to caught up with making everyone feel welcome that this country doesn't, in my opinion ,have an identity anymore.

i'm perfectly happy for people from all over the world to come and live here, i don't care what race people are, we are all just humans but it becomes rediculous when our country is trying to cater for everybody and its become a farce.

i'm supposed to be moving to australia within the next few years and in no way do i expect anything over there to change to fit my needs, if i live in a different country to the one in which i grew up in and fitted into, how can i expect that country to change its ways to suit me. thats just bloody stupidity.

anyway bak to id cards, i dont know if someones alredi said this but its highly probable that the government know all this stuff about us anyway. it would just be more conveinient if it was public and 'user friendly' so to speak.(its 1:30am and i cant read to well so i may just be repeting whats been said)

think about this, google earth. i live in a town called mossley, its in the middle of fookin nowhere and on google earth i can zoom right in and look at my garden, see my dads car on the drive amd follow the road to my brothers house in the next village of which the population is about 1000.

this is readily available to just browse at your own leasure, can you imagine what the government have available to them, they could probably tell us what we had for breakfast this morning. so ID cards aren't really an issue to much for me, i don't mind too much.

[monkeywalker]

i also agree with dave, i know i just moaned that our country is going crazy but as dave pointed out, change is a good thing. i don't like everything being so soft and PC but the point is, this country could be a lot worse. every generation goes on about how its going to the dogs, but this has been said for hundreds if not 1000's of years. if it was going to happen it would have done it by now.

for all the mistakes that are made, there are good decisions  being made. no matter who is in charge of a country, not everyone will always be happy, we have different opinions and like dave said, we should be able to express our opinions freely. christians and people who have not so popular beliefs get slated for being crazy, but the world would be dull with out veriety and without the freedom to express yourself the world will just become more enclosed until noones knows anyhing about anybody.

 i think the freedom of speech thing is badly affected in todays society, people disagree and make friends or they don't make friends, if they don't so bloody what, again like dave was suggesting, diversity is healthy, debate is healthy. why can't we just have our views without fear of being being un PC.

anyway, back to my piece of cheese cake.

[38thBeatle]

Blimey I was just saying about ID cards and how to avoid having to have one of the new ones. Interesting stuff that you guys have come up with though. I read an interesting book recently called The Tipping Point basically about the point at which something ( fashion, product or crime wave for example) becomes an "epidemic". Interesting particularly with what it says regarding the reduction in crime in New York City. Worth a read.
Whilst I can see the merits in identity cards, I can see that the way our government is going about it is a) too invasive b) I don't trust them with regards to keeping muy information safe from hackers c) I cannot see it preventing benefit fraud crime or terrorism d) lack of accountability e) potential for abuse by the authorities. I am way too cynical to believe in politicians- just look at the current situation this week with the Home Sec. Never mind Charles, you now qualify for a nice cushy job in Brussels.