How much does coil offset affect midrange?

[TwilightOdyssey]

Theory -- coil offset is a more significant factor in affecting the midrange of a pickup than magnet, wire ga., or number of winds.

I am basing this on the fact that I hear just about the same amount of midrange from all of the single coil pups BK makes, with two exceptions. (Sinner and Trilogy Suite) More winds seems to affect the frequency extremes in single coils, not the midrange. (This is not a complaint, just an observation. In fact, I view it as a Very Good Thing.)

With humbuckers you get a very varied midrange response, which I would attribute to the degree (or lack) of offset between the coils.

Fact?
Fiction?
Nonsense?

Discuss!!

[38thBeatle]

Not sure Ben. I can only directly compare two s/c sets- Apaches and Slowhands and the latter do seem, to my ears, to have more mid range unless there is just less upper frequencies that give that impression but I don't think so. Not sure if that is what you are driving at and I cannot comment upon h/bs.

[TwilightOdyssey]

I'm not really driving at anything, unfortunately lol PDT_008.

It's just that in my experience, I've heard a wide range of midrange level across the humbuckers that I don't hear in the single coil pups. The single coil pups vary across the extremes. So, the only thing I can find to account for that is that a humbucker, of course, is two coils. The offset is the only thing I can think of that would account for that.

Like I said, it's a theory. Any and all insight (esp Tim's and Steve's) and general discussion is welcome! I don't recall seeing this specific subject ever covered in this forum and thought it could be a good potential resource.

[PhilKing]

I would have to say that I think coil width must come into it too.  Take the 4 BKP single coil pickup shapes, Strat, Tele neck, Tele bridge and P-90.  I would have to say that the P-90 has a ton more midrange than any of the others.  Does this also equate if you have a jazzmaster (wider coil), or is it steel polepieces and heavier magnets in the P-90.  If I continue, I think everyone would agree that the one with the least mid is the Tele neck, then the Strat and finally the Tele bridge has the most of these 3.  That is also the way the width goes up.  So with all that, a humbucker has the widest coil (2 side by side), and the most mid.

Or have I really simplified it?

[TwilightOdyssey]

Yes, but that's comparing apples and oranges.

If you were to compare P-90 v. P-90 v. P-90, would you get the same variation in midrange? Interesting experiment, I should think.  Of course, you're going to get variations between single coil, tele, P-90 and humbuckers.

[deg0ey]

Mr TO: I reckon you have an interesting theory, and a possible way to experiment (those with many single coils and a lot of free time) is putting 2 different BK single coils in the same guitar and wiring them in series...Then switching them for different models etc, so you can compare how much the offset of the coils changes the midrange.

Admittedly it's not the same as a humbucker 'cause of the distance between the coils isn't the same - but it's a thought

[Tim]

Coil offsets do effect mid range but not quite to the extremes you may think.What's actually happening is the moment there is asymmetry between the coils phase cancellation isn't 100% anymore.Aurally this means more highs come through and the 'perception' of midrange alters.
If I wound 2 coils with 5000 turns each they would be perfect humbuckers and cancel out 50/60 cycle hum effeciently.If I wound 5150 and 4850 which would produce almost the same DC reading, you'd hear high end which balances against the mid range giving the impression of it dropping back.As you're no doubt aware when you use a graphic EQ, altering the phase of one cycle tends to knock the phase of the others-how much is perceived and how much actual I wouldn't like to hazard a guess as it'd take some serious analysis to verify.
Bottom line, anything to do with altering coil shape, size, no. of winds, offsets between coils etc will effect tone.

Before anyone panics about offset coil pickups not being 100% true humbuckers, panic not..........in my experience you can offset coils by as much as 1000 turns before noise becomes audible.This is dependant on wire gauge and overall no. of turns.................generally the offsets we use are nothing as extreme and no noise is audible at all.

[TwilightOdyssey]

Whoah, fascinating stuff.

Thanx for taking the time to post such a clear explanation, Tim!!

[gingataff]

5150 winds? (gets out a notepad) Presumably thats the recipe for the VHII? 8)

[Tim]

:lol: nope!

[JamesHealey]

do you use a counter to tell you how many winds you've done on a pickup then tim?