Decissions, decissions (which pickup for SG)

[WarrenTrucks]

I know there have been many threads about this, but since i want to get the best results possible I still want to consult other players to make my decision easier.

The guitar is a Gibson SG form 1978. The stock neck pickup is too muddy and the bridge is too trebly.

I have narrowed it to these pickups.

Stormy Monday

The Allman Brothers are my favourite band of all time, and if I am not mistaken, Dickey Betts used an SG for Stormy Monday at the Fillmore. The only problem is that I like to play with more gain, more in the style of Waren Haynes. Which brings me to...

The Mule

Warren's tone is THE tone I'm looking for, but since I don't have a Les Paul, i don't think that the Mules will help me. I've read that they are better for maple capped guitars. So..the obvious choice wold be...

Riff Raffs

Yup, but if there's a guitar tone I hate, it must be Anguses. To sharp and trebly, I want it to be more smooth, Santana-ish...so should I get the Abraxas?

As you can see there are pros and cons for every choice and I can't decide, so I am asking yu to help me out.

Thanks!

[Twinfan]

I think Stormy Mondays sound perfect for you...

[Philly Q]

I think the Abraxas could turn out muddy in an SG - not that it's a dark-sounding pickup, but it's higher-output than the other pups you mentioned.  The bass might be a bit "boomy".

In one of the SG threads Tim suggested that Mules will go well in an SG, if they have Alnico V magnets rather than Alnico IV.  It's on the first page of this thread:

http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1455&highlight=mule+sg

Reminds me, I must get round to installing my Riff Raff....

[Richie Zero]

In one of the SG threads Tim suggested that Mules will go well in an SG, if they have Alnico V magnets rather than Alnico IV.

I'm willing to hazard a guess that that is in fact the main (possibly only) difference between the Riff Raff and the Mule. So, a Mule with an Alnico V is maybe more of a Riff Raff than a Mule.

Anyway, to stop being a smart arse and reply to the original question, Tim recommended I put Riff Raffs in my SG recently. I followed his advice and have been very happy with the results.

[Philly Q]

I'm willing to hazard a guess that that is in fact the main (possibly only) difference between the Riff Raff and the Mule. So, a Mule with an Alnico V is maybe more of a Riff Raff than a Mule.

Oooh, controversial!    Nothing wrong with being a smartarse, I do it all the time.  Then again, didn't Tim's original Riff Raff have AIIs, which might mean the current-spec RR began as an AV Mule?  Chicken/egg.  Egg/chicken...

Richie, I know you have SMs (albeit in a very different guitar).  How much less aggressive than the Riff Raffs are they?

[Canadian Steve]

8)

[carlaz]

I'm willing to hazard a guess that that is in fact the main (possibly only) difference between the Riff Raff and the Mule. So, a Mule with an Alnico V is maybe more of a Riff Raff than a Mule.

Oooh, controversial!    Nothing wrong with being a smartarse, I do it all the time.  Then again, didn't Tim's original Riff Raff have AIIs, which might mean the current-spec RR began as an AV Mule?

Surely the products page shows the Mule and the Riff Raff as having different DC values?  Canīt just be different magnets!

[Philly Q]

Surely the products page shows the Mule and the Riff Raff as having different DC values?  Canīt just be different magnets!

It's only 8.3K vs 8.4K, not much difference at all really.  Anyway, I was only mucking about speculating on Richie's theory.  It's Friday afternoon, I'm bored.  

[COMKEEN]

WarrenTrucks,

as you might have already read in some thread or another, Tim usually recommends either low or high output pickups for an SG, because they match the all mahogany body better than mid output pups (which might sound muddy). Insofar, you won't go wrong with either of the three Vintage pickups you mentioned in your initial post.
The RiffRaff places its strength in bite and crunch (in your words, they sound "sharp and trebly"), not warmth. If you don't like this tone, don't buy this pickup just because it looks a little "hotter" than the other two. When I was looking for a set of BKPs for my Epiphone SG, I found that in the majority of cases, Tim recommends going as low as possible. This means that he would recommend a Stormy Monday (even with "weak" Alnico II magnets) over a Mule (which is more suited for Les Pauls, I think). I remember one case where forum member "Fourth Feline" was looking for new pickups for his SG and Tim told him to put the SMs from his LP into the SG and to get new Pups for the LP instead.
I don't know what you mean by "I like to play with more gain...". The SM doesn't turn into mud when you drive your amp a bit harder (there are some very nice overdriven SM clips out there, indeed), so using more gain on the amp shouldn't be a problem. There isn't much difference between the output of a SM and the output of a Mule (output specs refer to the bridge pickup only) anyway. However, the SM is known to be a very "dynamic pickup", so you may have to hit the strings a little harder to push your amp...

[Fourth Feline]

Hi there Warren,

As Comkeen said, I had the same dilema last year and fitted a calibrated set of Stormy Mondays. They are wonderful and 'open' in an S.G.

I thought you might like to know that (as Comkeen mentioned) - when I e:mailed Tim about whether I should use Mules or SMs, he recomended (as accurately as always) - that the SMs sit just right in an S.G. and the Mules in a Les Paul. Generally speaking, I gathered (from Tim's answers around the forum etc) that the SMs are built like PAFs were in the early sixties when the S.G was first introduced and the Mules like PAFs from the late 50s.

I have the Alnico II type SMs which have made a muddy S.G. into a sweet warm and detailed songbird of a guitar. I would say (for example) - that in the middle toggle position with both pickups on, it sounds like B.B.King's guitar at it's best if played through a clean amp. They can take tasteful gain and yet still retain their singing voice. The top end remains very sweet and smooth, even under pressure.

As I play mostly clean, I would only wonder if the slightly more focused Alnico IV magnet SM might work better for a person using an Allman Brothers (gainier) sound more frequently than I do. The winding and impedance of the pickups is just right for a slimmer or hollow bodied guitar though, The  SM windings also being the basis of Tim's 'Peter Green' type pickup that Gary Moore now uses.

I first tried mine in the Les Paul, and they were lovely there too.

Sadly, I have no facility to post a soundclip, but can assure you they are absolutely 'diamond' in an S.G.

Regards,

Derek.

[38thBeatle]

Stoppit Derek, you are giving me GAS.

[Twinfan]

Generally speaking, I gathered (from Tim's answers around the forum etc) that the SMs are built like PAFs were in the early sixties when the S.G was first introduced and the Mules like PAFs from the late 50s.

To add to this, the Riff Raffs are closer to the later 60s "Patent Number" humbuckers that came after the PAFs.  Hence the association with Angus Young as his preferred SGs are the late 60s variety.

Sounds like you want Stormy Mondays as I said earlier  ;)

[Fourth Feline]

Stoppit Derek, you are giving me GAS.

 Nice one ...  :lol:

The only thing I would warn you about though, is the fact that
(to quote a guitar playing friend)

" If I had these in mine, I'd have to practice more ..."

Cheers !

Derek.

[WarrenTrucks]

Thanks for all your help. I hope my Stormy Mondays will arrive soon! I will post soundclips as soon as possible.

[Fourth Feline]

Thanks for all your help. I hope my Stormy Mondays will arrive soon! I will post soundclips as soon as possible.

 A pleasure Warren, I am looking forward to your comments and soundclips !

The SM is just such a sweet p/u  :D

I gather that whilst BKP began with the creation of 'Miracle Man' pickups, the SMs came straight after and were Tim's original retro masterpiece. We that have them feel they deserve 'cult' status, you will soon find out why.

All the best !

Derek.