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Author Topic: Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000  (Read 8545 times)

zigmund

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Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000
« on: January 24, 2007, 12:53:03 AM »
First, to put this in context, you might want to refer to the "zigmund-Mules" thread and mp3 on the Players forum, where I've tried to let the Mules breathe a bit.
A couple of stray subjective thoughts on the Mule humbuckers I had fitted in my SG2000 at the weekend here: shouldn't be too many surprises!
 The SG is a late 70s/early 80s original that had never left Japan until last year; you know the score with these: thick mahogany capped with maple, totally neck through. This one has push-push coils splits that in conjunction with the top-notch pots gave a wide tonal range.
 Same old story: the stock pups were what they were and gave the guitar its distinctive sound. Neck: lovely, creamy, yet quite soaring in the high notes; a little woolly perhaps in the lower reaches. Bridge: inclined to shrillness and a bit thin on its own, didn't quite manage the top 2 strings very well..however, on mix position both in bucker and split mode, judicious tweaking of tone pots gave some lovely throaty sounds, and overall very responsive to pick nuances. Both had gone microphonic.
 Once the Mules were in, I made the initial error of thinking they would make the guitar "same yet better"..something like a Yammy pup without the uneven response I suppose.
  I had to adjust bridge mule height quite considerably to get things balanced: I mistakenly thought that the wrong unit had gone in the bridge, as I felt it was underpowered in relation to the neck. I 'fess up here that it was everton_fc who reflected that a personal adjustment period works wonders: so, once I'd told myself that in effect I had not a "better Yamaha" but a new sound machine, I started to fret less(er, more actually, if ya know what I mean  8) )
  Generally it's now in the same park in some sense, naturally enough, as a well-crafted Les Paul with the pickups you'd always thought should be there but usually weren't. I found that with my style of playing, whereas I started to "feel Santana", it started to come out like Jeff Beck. Oddly, they are ever so slightly more noisy than the Yamahas, but only noticeable at 24 bit through decent monitors.
 Both pickups give the guitar a tighter bottom end, both well-potted, though I fear I'll lose the gold off the bridge as I've had to get it very close to the strings to get it to balance with the big warmth of the neck. Strange as it may seem, my usual "lead" setting is in mix position or neck, the former with constant tweaks of tone and vol controls: I began to find new pleasures in the most subtle of control changes: what had been swells with the Yammy pups were now measured soars of sustain; a rolloff of tone and quite vocal responses were wanting to be shaped...in fact, if I play quicker I can miss out on many things that the guitar is now naturally capable of doing. I'm not one to emotional flights, but can honestly say that I feel the combo of these pups in the Yammy is actually nudging me to shift my style and phrasing in order to "go with" what they suggest.
  More specifically, I reckon there's a "transparency" in these Mules: for me at any rate they seem to want to work with the guitar's natural voicing rather than impose their own personality; they split fairly well...but again I'm conscious of still residually comparing them to the stock pups. I think were I to lower both pups, the range of tones would shift again.
  As you can hear on the mp3, the Mules are very responsive to pick attack and can carry sustained notes quite purely, without having to resort to "compression"-type overdrive in order to push the notes out. Consequently, the Mules kind of work with me rather than me having to fight my way into a phrase.
  If I were forced into a comparison(and you'll get the idea I find this an inappropriate thing to do), I'd say:
 Mule neck: warmer yet clearer highs than the Yam; oddly a mite less responsive on the D string; round and tight bottom(oo-er, etc;)
Mule bridge:  clearer and more balanced than the Yam, much better at embracing the E and B strings; snarly without being shrill like the Yam, if closer to the strings...no interference beats thus far or else I'd be having problems, as I do feel a little more power would help it balance more easily with the neck.
  Phew; I know I've gone on here, yet I wanted to be as detailed and as honest as I could. In some ways it may be still too early for me to be fully balanced and informative. I don't know about the rest of the range of BKPs, but I feel that these are a very good pup(and I'm not easily pleased) that would work in many a decent guitar but in quite different and individual ways. I can see that these would be ideal, as many of you have said, in a Les Paul..leaving me further annoyed that Gibson can't pursue excellence in this department.
Awbugger. Where did I put that PRS? (They told me this would happen! :roll: )

everton_fc

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Re: Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2007, 08:54:13 AM »
Quote from: zigmund
... for me at any rate they seem to want to work with the guitar's natural voicing rather than impose their own personality...


Reckon that hits the nail on the head. Good, honest review of the Mules. The more I'm playing my Yamaha SG, the more I'm becoming addicted to the Mules. Would love to hear how you get on if/when you play in a live band setting.

Good to exchange views/experiences with you dude!

Indigoresonance

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Hello Zigmund
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2007, 12:17:01 PM »
Hello Zigmund,
I am one of the first people that originally responded to your frist sound clip on this Forum. You mentioned you had posted an evaluation of the Mules which at the time I had no idea how to find your post on the Mules so it has taken me this long to finally read it. Since my original response to your post I have so far purchased 5 sets of Bare knuckles pickups. The first set was a Custom set... a Miracle Man & a War Pig. They had the matching Warpig covers and had the upgraded Alnico magnets. That was a very quick lesson in pickups... I am not a metal or shred player so they were definitely not what I was looking for.. I got rid of them within a month and purhased a calibrated covered set of mules which was a significant improvent... Now although I find them to be amazing pickups.. very defined and accurate the increase in mids was not what I was looking for.. They do not have the brightness of tone in comparisson to the Jim Rolph pafs that I experienced prior to purchasing these. I have the Mules currently installed in a Les Paul with a solid Mahogany body & neck, an Ebony Fretboard and a 1/2 inch maple cap... and for sure they are one of the best pickups I have had in there. Don't get me wrong these are amazing pickups without a doubt and the more I use them the more I appreciate them for what they were designed to do but it comes down to personal tone preferences. These mules replaced a set of PRS McCarty pickups a few months ago and I would have to say they are definitely a little more expressive then the McCartys'. However I purchased them hoping to make the guitar a little brighter but in truth the Mules are not much brighter then the McCarty's.. ironically they are very similar in tone.  They both have almost the same mid boost enhancment where I was looking for a even frequency response across the spectrum. Now just to let you know I have a degree in recording engineering, television & video production and computer graphics. I have worked in several of the Studios in Vancouver Canada and have been told by many in this industry that I have what they call Golden ears.  I just thought I would bring that up so you don't think I am just another flunky rambling on. One thing I would like to say to you is that out of all the sound clips I have heard on this Forum your clip that I first commented to is still by far the best non pro clip I have heard on this Forum which leads me to ask you what your profession is? Also your writing skill is very articulate and informative. I am very cursious to know if you are a pro musician and if not what is stopping you. Do you work in the sound or film industry? Anyway Zig since I first left my comment to your sound clip I have purchased a Crawler, a VII, a set of Stormy Mondays and a set of Mystery BK pickups off of Ebay... I just paid for the Stormy Mondays and Mystery Pickups today and I should have them in about a week.. so I will let you know my thoughts on them when I get them.. Interestingly enough I also own a Yamaha SG1996 Model. The 30th Anniversary model which I believe is bassically the same guitar you have. I love the sound of it as it is and so far have not been compelled to change the pickups out of it. As a matter of fact I made a recording using my Les Paul Style guitar with the Mules in it and made the same recording using the stock SG and in truth after having listened to them both several times with AKG K340 headphones on and also thru my $2500 Monitor Audio reference speakers I would have to say yes the Mules have more definition to their tone but I still in some ways prefer the brighter tone of the SG as they don't have that mid boost that the Mules & the McCartys seem to have added.. which is exactly why I removed the McCartys in the first place. I would like to add here that there is a definite quality and definition of tone that the Mules have that the stock Yamaha pickups don't have especially when you push them a bit. The Mules stay true to form being very accurate and defined regardless of what you throw at them  where as the stock Yamaha pups are nowhere near as accurate when pushed but for mellow playing they are amazing and for the average player/ear the stock Yamaha pickups are certainly better than any stock pickups I have ever used.. and certainly just as good if not better than your standard Dimarzio or Seymour Duncan pickup which also in their own right are very good pickups. When I put the McCarty pickups back into the PRS I added one of those Torres Engineering mid Cut tonal controls and it made those pickups sound amazing. I mean that.. the improvement was like from a 7 to a 9.5 on a scale of 1 to 10. I love the Mules and I think if I were to keep the them that is exactly what I would do with them as well. The tone pots with the mid scoop are about $25 and well worth the investment. From what I have researched I am thinking now that I probably should have originally went with the Stormy Mondays as they are supposed to be a bit brighter with a flatter response across the board... hence less mids.. might be exactly what I am looking for.. more like the Rolphs. So having said all of that I am going to be installing the Crawler in the neck position and the VII in the bridge in another one of my guitars to see how I like them...  I would like to do that before I get the other two sets of BKs so I will really have a greater reference point. In my collection of guitars I also own two Telecaster Specials with the Humbucker in the neck positions which I will be trying many if not all of the BK pickups that pass thru my hands to see how they sound in there. I love telecasters but once having gotten used to having a humucker in the neck I can honestly say I will never go back to a traditional Telecaster... It's like having a Telacaster, Strat & Les Paul all in one guitar.  I have even gone as far as routing out the center position on both Teles and adding a third pickup offering me an even more diverse spectrum of tonal options... Needless to say I am having a blast..! I have about 25 guitars and about 80 pickups laying around just waiting to be explored.. it just comes down to finding the time to do it all...:):) the next BK pickups on my list to try are the Rebel Yell as the sound clips on the site sound incredible and the the Abraxas, the Emerald & Mississippi Queen. Oh and I forgot to mention the Trilogys for one of my Strats. Which I think when I have gone thru all of those pickups I am pretty certain I will know which BKs are for me..:) So far the nicest sounding pickups I have tried to date are still the Jim Rolphs.. but I am crossing my fingers in hopes that I will find something I like better in the BK line. Jim Rolph makes Pickups for the likes of the Rolling Stones, Robbin Ford... and many greats.. Ford plays them thru his $25,000 Dumble amp.. They are about $275 US each... so you know you are getting into some serious quality at that point. Once I have explored all of these pickups I will let you know my perspective. But for now the Rolphs come out on top. It appears we have similar tastes in tone.. pickups... guitars and probably women... lol
Anyway I am glad I finally figured out how to find your post.
I look forward to hearing back from you and if you have since tried any other BK pickups that you like or love.. Or if you have any clips to post that would be greatly appreciated as well.
I am not as skilled at playing guitar as you are but I still love to play just the same. I would really be interested in hearing your set up as far as effects... amps.. mics... or how you get that sweet tone on your recordings..? How do you get your guitars to growl like that... is that a tube growl... a pedal... a plugin..???
You really are a gifted player... ! Which I am sure enough people have reflected that back to you by now... Stick with it and see where it goes.
For any newbies reading this if you start using high end pickups you will hear your music differently and therefore create on a much different level.. a quality pickup will inspire you to raise your level of playing and creativity, The only thing is be warned... when you start to play with a high end pickup you will never go back to the Seymour Duncans or Dimarzios.. they are just not in the same league.. so be ready to pay the price because they are not cheap.. but they are so worth it.
All the best to you Zigmund and keep the clips coming.
From Vancouver Canada,
Christopher  :shock:
PG Blues, Rebel Yells, Mississippi Qs, Emeralds, Crawlers, VHII, Stormies, Black Dogs, & Riff Raffs

Doadman

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Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2007, 07:11:33 PM »
I found these contributions very interesting, simply because for many years now the Yamaha SG has been one of my favourite guitars. Sadly I've never owned one but maybe one day. Unlike 99.9% of guitars I've listened to, I love the tone of the Yamaha so much that it never even crossed my mind to change the pups if I was ever lucky enough to own one. The Yamaha SG has to be one of the most under used and under rated guitars in the world.

everton_fc

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Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2007, 08:38:13 AM »
Cool thread. I own two SG's - one is a SG1500 (1976) loaded with Mules. Fantastic guitar.

The other is stock SG800 (1979) - currently for sale in my freinds guitar shop if anyones interested. I tried selling on ebay but it seems people are pretty anal - if it hasnt got Fender or Gibson on the headstock people think it sucks. Like the above post, IMHO Yamaha SG's are one of the most underated guitar around.

For £400+ odd quid you can purchase a vintage Yamaha SG and it rips the hell out of a lot of LP's I've heard and at half the price or more for a guitar of the same era.

Interestingly, it seems Yamaha are prodcing these guitars again looking at this months Guitarist magazine. Whether they will be as nice as the originals is another thing - most probably will be! The price tag is pretty rude though!

All I can say is both the SG's I own are really heavy, solid mahogony. The SG800 is so versatile, being split coiled humbuckers. The SG1500 isnt split coils, and with the Mules installed it floors my friends brand new LP. Not trying to be smug here though... much...

38thBeatle

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Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2007, 09:07:38 AM »
I have only had time to read this thread today but enjoyed the content enormously. I remember Yam SGs from the 1970's (yes I am that old) and the analysis of the tone brought back memories of a head to head with a Les Paul that 2 of my friends did way back then. The SG series guitars were superb but came at a time when everyone was going punk I seem to recall. Anyway, the comparison of the original and replacement mules was interesting and well written. If I wasn't bailing out one of my sons yet again, I'd be seriously tempted Mr Everton!
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Doadman

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Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2007, 10:03:57 AM »
I know exactly how you feel. I've just moved house so funds are short but God I'd love to own a Yamaha SG. I agree that the timing probably was wrong for the SG given the punk era and I'd also agree that there is alot of snobbishness about the name. I recall when I first started to take an interest in guitars I never would have looked at any Yamaha but I can't think of any Fender or Gibson I'd rather have than a Yamaha SG now. In those terms the current price for an SG is probably reasonable but in all practical terms they'll never shift many of them with that kind of price tag so I fear it is a guitar that will continue to be overlooked.

Philly Q

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Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2007, 10:39:38 AM »
Quote from: 38thBeatle
If I wasn't bailing out one of my sons yet again

Not literally I hope, Mr 38th?
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BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Ratrod

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Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2007, 04:53:23 PM »
For all your enjoyment. My seventies Yamaha SG400 with Crawlers. This is the guitar I learned on and is now all fixed up.


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noodleplugerine

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Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2007, 05:04:30 PM »
Woah - Beautiful! ^_^
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Bird

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Initial findings: Mules and Yamaha SG2000
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2007, 04:59:48 AM »
I've got my Yamaha Sg 500 fitted with VH2's......... Oh how sweet it is  8)
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