i got into a tone argument, and now i'm looking for opinions

[aisuru]

right, bare with me, there's a bit of story here. i appologise in advance for the amount of reading. download this while you're reading.

i recently upgraded my recording setup,. i was testing out some things tonight and threw a quick test track together. basically just a drumloop i had to hand, and a guitar loop recorded to test the new setup.

the guitar is an Epiphone G-310 - SG style, Alder body - using the Bare Knuckle Black Dog in the bridge ( 10.2k Alnico V )
close mic'd through an Alesis Spitfire amp ( 8" 15W solid state, with the overdrive set fairly high ) using a fairly cheap Sennheiser dynamic, into the Soundcraft mixer, then into Ableton Live via the new Firewire interface. no EQ, no effects. a it of compression from the limiter on the guitar track, and again on the master out, to stop it clipping.

the mic placement was basically just where the mic landed in front of the grille. no thought went into it, as i was just looking for a quick bit of guitar, purely to see what the quality was like.

the results were rather pleasing. a very clean recording, no hiss!  :D

i sent the track to my pal, over MSN, as we often do, using each other as a sort of sounding board. i didn't explain the 'quick test of the setup' nature of the track, so he judged it on the quality of the tone, rather than the quality of the recording.

he's not a BK fan. he thinks my SG sounds 'thin' on there, and it's not got high enough of a gain. it's 'too crunchy'. he reckons i should get SD Pearly Gates.

so... based on the track provided... does the guitar sound 'thin' to you? bearing in mind the simplicity of the recording, and the fact it's Alder - he seemed to be basing a lot of his impression comparing it to AC/DC and recent SOAD, which are proper Gibsons, and thus Magogany.

cheers!

[OD-Black_Fire]

Its a pretty bad recording IMHO, I don't think anyone should base their opinion of BKP's off this clip. It's a little thin, but that can be a good thing.

[Jazz Rock]

I have been recording a few sample more or less in similar conditions to what you have done, even more archaic: through an old mic directly into soundforge. Apart from my playing that is not really good on these samples, I managed to get fairly nice sounds at times.

Note that I am no pro in regards of recording but, it seems to me that you could improve the sound only by tweaking a bit with the amp.

I would personally say it only miss some treble. Yeah, the guitar in your clip sound a bit too bassy for my taste... if it can help in any way?

[Muzzzz]

System of a Down? What 10.2k pickup can do that anyway?

[aisuru]

i'm going to try a few more recordings today, to see if i can get an improved sound.

Note that I am no pro in regards of recording but, it seems to me that you could improve the sound only by tweaking a bit with the amp.

I would personally say it only miss some treble. Yeah, the guitar in your clip sound a bit too bassy for my taste... if it can help in any way?

sadly, the amp doesn't really have much in the way of controls to be tweeked - no onboard EQ, for example. i'll try the mixer's EQ though. the mic placement is probably where it's falling down though, i'll try out some different placement strategies.

[froglord]

If he thinks the Black Dog can't get enough gain, the Pearly Gates won't help:

Black Dog = 10.2K
Pearly Gates (bridge) = 8.35K

There does seem to be quite a bit of "gargle" in your clip. Did you tune the guitar beforehand? Is it possible you're getting unwanted overtones from dissimilarly tuned strings?

[aisuru]

There does seem to be quite a bit of "gargle" in your clip. Did you tune the guitar beforehand? Is it possible you're getting unwanted overtones from dissimilarly tuned strings?

no, not really. i fingered an open-Em and played each string. sounded close enough, so i left it at that. :roll:

the strings are kinda old, probably about six months now that i think of it :?

well, here's a new clip anyway. a bit more care in the mic placement this time.
http://rapidshare.com/files/15049076/guitar_test_2.mp3
first riff is the BD, the second time round it's the Mule at the neck ( 7.3k Alnico IV )

i think the Mule sounds fatter than the 'Dog.

[Sifu Ben]

Your pickups are worth more than your guitar  :roll:

[aisuru]

Your pickups are worth more than your guitar  :roll:

well spotted. is that supposed to help?

[froglord]

Second clip sounds a lot better to me - less gargle, much smoother. Mic placement it is!

[Peter Antal]

If he thinks the Black Dog can't get enough gain, the Pearly Gates won't help:

Black Dog = 10.2K
Pearly Gates (bridge) = 8.35K

Adding the different magnets to the list as well (Pearly Gates is Alnico II, Black Dog is Alnico V), it's pretty sure the Black Dog has a fatter, punchier sound than the PG.

Have you adjusted pickup heights? In the bridge position a 3-mm distance from the strings on the low E side seems to work well with both my Nailbomb and Mules.

Don't worry about the G310, it will sound great with your pickups, if it's set up well. The amp you're using could be better, though. Practice combos with small speakers tend to sound thin and raspy with the built-in overdrive. If you're on budget but would like to achieve really good sounds with home recording I'd recommend you buying either a low wattage tube amp with a 10" or 12" speaker or a digital modeller unit like a Line 6 Toneport or Vox Valvetronix.

[aisuru]

right, he's now said this one isn't as thin... but now it's 'muddy'.  

Second clip sounds a lot better to me - less gargle, much smoother. Mic placement it is!

8)

the mic was more angled away from the grille a bit more. i think it was nearly perpendicular the first time. i moved it closer to the centre of the cones as well - the first time was further towards the outside of the speaker, which is probably why the sound was so bassy.

Have you adjusted pickup heights? In the bridge position a 3-mm distance from the strings on the low E side seems to work well with both my Nailbomb and Mules.

Don't worry about the G310, it will sound great with your pickups, if it's set up well. The amp you're using could be better, though. Practice combos with small speakers tend to sound thin and raspy with the built-in overdrive. If you're on budget but would like to achieve really good sounds with home recording I'd recommend you buying either a low wattage tube amp with a 10" or 12" speaker or a digital modeller unit like a Line 6 Toneport or Vox Valvetronix.

it was actually my mate who set the guitar up. he played it through his Fender ( which i thought sounded a bit cr@p, to be honest, ) he thought it was sub-par, but he's a cynic!

i want to get a better amp sometime soon. possibly a Matamp.

mind you, there's also the plan to get another SG - a proper Mahogany Gibson - and stick a Nailbomb and possibly a 'Pig in it.

i'll try the pickup heights tomorrow.

cheers guys.

[froglord]

i want to get a better amp sometime soon. possibly a Matamp.

That'll do the trick.  8)

I'm using the Minimat's DI into a Palmer PDI-09 speaker simulator - a completely silent recording setup, and it sounds excellent.

[LazyNinja]

+1 for toneport for cheap recording. Not excellent but decent enough sounds. Make sure your PC is up to the job though (mine wasnt when I first got it lol).



off topic

aisuru, is your friend the guy called frazzles that has clips on youtube? I came across them when I was researching Laney VH100R and your username rang a bell.

[aisuru]

aisuru, is your friend the guy called frazzles that has clips on youtube? I came across them when I was researching Laney VH100R and your username rang a bell.

why, yes, he is.

i guess this means he's famous now  :o