Which multi FX?

[pagan7]

Had my DigiTech GNX3000 guitar workstation for 8 months now and so far haven't regretted buying it for a minute. At both bedroom and stage volumes the amp,cab and effects models sound excellent, especially in stereo.
I use a Boss Micro BR recorder as a note pad for ideas when I'm getting creative at home and the reproduction straight out of the GNX3000 make my Nailbombs really sound the mutts nuts.
Same goes for recording onto a computer..the included software enables the GNX3000 to act as the soundcard..so no latency problems.
I audtioned the GNX3000 alongside a GT-8 before I bought it and prefered it in every respect....ease of use, ease of getting excellent tones and the overall sound, though of course what makes for great tone is very much down to personal taste but the GNX3000 does everything well..from death metal to chicken pickin and even the factory presets are usable straight out of the box.
I'd say at least try one before you decide which way to jump...... and best of all...the GNX3000 is now available for under 200 quid.  8)

[Doadman]

Do you know, I'd forgotten all about the GNX3000!

I had originally discounted it because so many people seemed to coplain about the delays involved in moving between patches, even on the more expensive GNX4. As you mention stage volumes I assume that you play it live so presumably you've found it to be no big deal. I don't play in a band right now but you never know what the future may hold so I thought it was a non-starter. I've just reread a comparison with the GT8, Tonelab and XTL (I posted the link earlier) and it actually comes out very well indeed. I'm going to have a final try with the GT8 and Tonelab tomorrow so I'll see if the stock a GNX3000 as well and see how it compares side by side.

[Watsonica]

The GNX is a great buy and another excellent unit and by all accounts that I've read quite a bit easier to be "up and running" whereas the GT-8 has a considerable learning curve to get started with.

The fact that you wouldn't be gigging live makes a difference too, that's where most will make up their mind ultimately between one or the other unit, some like the versitility that the GT affords but many will go with the GNX (or similar) for simplicity sake..not to mention that the GNX sounds great..I've heard many good clips of that one myself.

[Doadman]

Well, I'm not as far forward as I'd hoped and that is because the only place I could find that was stocking a GNX seemed to have no idea how to use it! When I first plugged my guitar in using a Marshall JCM800 model it just sounded like a bag of angry wasps. I left and went back a couple of hours later with my own amp to give them a chance to read the manual. That did improve matters but it still sounded like a very processed signal, unlike the Vox. As Guitarist magazine gave it 5 stars I assume that I simply haven't heard it at its best. I did, however, hear enough to convince me that it is as good as the Boss and as it's the thick end of a hundred quid cheaper so that's the Boss out of the equation. There was certainly that latency people talk about between patches and it was mildly annoying but realistically, I'm a bedroom player so it's hardly the end of the world.. Overall I thought that the lo-gain tones and the Hi-gain sounds were pretty good given the ineptitude of the sales staff. Pinched harmonics were really leaping out all over the place when I played Hi-gain. It seemed like I just thought 'pinched harmonic' and there it was. It was that Mashall JCM800 model that has really made me stop and think. To me that is exactly the amp where I want that warm tube sound and it was exactly where the unit sounded most artificial and processed. Given all I've read about the GNX it was a big disappointment but as I said, it may be due to the sales staff not knowing what they are doing.

I then went and tried the Vox again. God that UK80s model is fantastic! So warm and tube-like. As for the problem of High Gain, I tried the US Hi-gain model without any pedals at all and just pushed the gain on the amp model. It turned out OK, though I had both controls pushed hard to get that and I think the tone would have been improved if I'd backed off on the amp gain but added a distortion pedal, which of course would preclude the use of a Wah effect.

Now comes the crunch. I KNOW the Vox is really good at reproducing valve tone and I can get one for £247 but I suspect that to really get great Hi-gain sonds from it, at some point I will probably have to invest in a good distortion pedal to go with it. The alternative is to take a chance on the GNX3000. The reviews are excellent and it got that 5 star award from Guitarist magazine so there must be some great sounds in there, it's just that I couldn't access them in the time I had. If I go that route it will have to be, to a degree, a leap of faith as I simply trust what others have said. Having said that, it is only £169 online and that saving may open up other alternatives. With the difference I could buy the MFX Supermodels or I could maybe try a Harmonic Converger on it. Would it be possible to use some kind of valve preamp with it to warm up the signal? I've heard that done on a Roland Cube before and it was improved dramatically. The fact is the shop I tried is the only one around here that seems to stock Digitech products and they didn't really know how it worked. I think what I need is someone who knows a GNX3000 well and has also tried the Tonelab so they can advise me if the GNX can get close to the tube-like tone achieved by the Tonelab or would know if any of the ideas I mentioned might work. Is there such a person out there?

[Watsonica]

(lol) I've written this on a number of forums that I attend, but judging an MFX unit on presets or a badly set-up patch can really give a false impression of what any of the units can ultimately do...give me 5 minutes with the AXE-FX (hottest and most expensive on the market ATM) and I guarantee you that I can manipulate a patch in it to sound so horrible as to make one choose a Zoom 505 (not to slight that one) over it (lol)..of course the presets in the AXE-FX unit are good right off the bat, but I'm just using that as an illustration.

It took me a few days before I was really comfortable with the knowledge that the GT-8 could do what I wanted and more. I'd have to give the other units an equal amount of time before I dismissed them altogether.

If you'll go to the StompBox.net, there are a number of users there who can give you quite a bit more info on that unit than I can. They're located here> http://forum.thestompbox.net/index.php

More specifically..there is a "head to head" shoot-out (article) between these models here> http://forum.thestompbox.net/showthread.php?t=5765 at the same forum that may give you a better idea.

[Kilby]

Have to agree regarding the preset issue

Most of the presets are really overdone (for want of a better term) and I assome is used to catch peoples attention when they are browsong in a shop.

I tend to turn off all effects and just go with a pure amp model if I can get a few minutes alone with the FX unit, I always turn off the speaker emulation if I am going through anything other than headphones.

As for patch switching usually theres some sort of channel switching (for want of a better term) to switch between 2 presets much quicker than normal.

I find the US magazines love the Digitech unit, but I find so many US guitarists sound processed (and I dont like that). Hence I tend to have a dislike of Line6 products. I believe Philly has a GNX 3000, give him a shout as (although he denys it) he does know a good tone when he hears it.

As for distortion pedals well you will probably find one that you like the sound of and stick that infront of any moddeler that you buy anyway, so don't get too hung up on that. Vox, digitech or whatever it will happen eventually (same with the wah most likely)

I would still suggest looking at the m-audio Black Box, as with the V2 pack (a free upgrade) it has some good high gain models
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MAudioBlackBox-focus.html. Ignore the price listed above as £75 quid is the going price ATM (http://www.turnkey.co.uk/web/productAction.do?dispatch=showProduct&SKU=MMAN-BLACKBOX&context=WEB)

In saying last week I spent more time with the Amplitube Hendrix package (using the m-audio box as the audio interface). Damn now I have to buy an expression pedal I just saw on the Turnkey site :(

[pagan7]

Hmm maybe I have american tone tastes  :roll:  but I find most of the patch presets on the GNX3000 quite usable and a good starting point for tweaking to your own preferences and I absolutely love my Line6 Echo Park which I use stereo in from the GNX for expanded delay options. I then go from that to the stereo effects loop return on my Marshall AVT275, bypassing the preamp and just using the clean grunt of the stereo power amp.
And Doadman, don't be put off by inept sales staff. One of the GNX3000s greatest strengths is its sheer tweakability. Yes there's a slight delay when switching patches but no more so than switching individual stomp boxes on and off and if like me  you don't tend to switch complete patches within a song then you won't find it a problem. I prefer to have my GNX set so I can switch the effect modules within a patch during a song.....say bringing in a chorus or flanger and adding fuzz or overdrive. When you switch the modules within a patch on or off, theres no delay at all.
Goodluck with whatever you decide to go with

[pagan7]

P.S. at £169 you've got to be laughing  

[Kilby]

Hmm maybe I have american tone tastes  :roll:  but I find most of the patch presets on the GNX3000 quite usable and a good starting point for tweaking to your own preferences

And Doadman, don't be put off by inept sales staff. One of the GNX3000s greatest strengths is its sheer tweakability. Yes there's a slight delay when switching patches but no more so than switching individual stomp boxes on and off and if like me  you don't tend to switch complete patches within a song then you won't find it a problem.

Goodluck with whatever you decide to go with

Well my experience was 10 minutes in a shop with the factory presets, I just found it a little too artificial (but nowhere near as bad as Line6 or Zoom though). Also the morph function screwed me up when I just tried to get a straight amp emulation.

The rest of my thoughts where from american guitar magazines, where I just found their settings totally over cooked (compared with their UK equivalents)

What you say about the switching within the patch was what I meant about channel switching

Rob...

[Watsonica]

Whatever you do trust your ears first, your purse (well..your wallet) will surely follow :lol:  Looking forward to knowing which you decide on and hope it meets all your needs.

[Doadman]

I didn't feel that the GT8 justified its price premium of almost £80 because the quality of the amp models seemed similar and while it had some cool features, the GNX also had some alternative cool features to compensate. There is the issue of lag between patches and I admit that is annoying, especially as none of the other units have the same problem and the GNX claims to be a pro unit. Nevertheless, I've assumed that as I don't play in a band it isn't worth the extra money to eliminate the problem and I will learn to live with it in the same way that I'd have to learn to live with the limitations of the Tonelab. It also seems a reasonable point that to drastically change sounds using banks of stompboxes, that would also take a little time while I did my Riverdance impression. Having never used a wide range of stompboxes I may be wrong in this assumption.

On another forum I spoke to a guy who was using a GNX with a Harmonic Converger and that was a real bonus, even if he hadn't directly compared it to the Tonelab. While he didn't say that it gave it more of a tube tone, I assume that is what he meant when he said that it brought the sounds to life. That is very interesting, partly because I have felt a little sceptical about the HC and partly because a key part of the equation for me is budget. In a straight fight the GNX may give away a few things to the GT8 and Tonelab but the way I'm looking at it is that for about £250 I can have either of those units and for about £270 I can have the GNX WITH a Harmonic Converger. If the HC is as good as people say it is then surely that represents a very good buy.

Based on this reasoning I am inclined to take a chance on the GNX3000. I won't order it until later today or maybe tomorrow morning just in case anyone wants to tell me I'm either crazy and made fundamental mistakes in my reasoning or that it's a good choice. Please feel free to comment, it all helps a great deal.

[Watsonica]

..in case anyone wants to tell me I'm either crazy and made fundamental mistakes in my reasoning..

not at all, not from me anyway...sounds like it'll be a good combination for you and I hope that it is.

As for the HC, I've never heard or read a complaint on it..anywhere. It would be a first.

I would heartily suggest that when ordering your HC that you tell Radley that it will be used with a GNX, he'll know how to make the appropriate one for it then, there are several ways to make one for the GT-8 (loop/non-loop-stereo/mono) because of its ability to insert anything anywhere in the chain of effects whereas some (MFX) units cannot do this.

[Doadman]

The Digitech GNX 3000 arrived first and my initial impressions wewre that I was impressed. There are loads of features on it and the 'warp' feature opens up endless possibilities when it comes to creating patches. There are some awful sounding presets there but overall I found them surprisingly good. As expected, the softer tones are excellent, mild distortion is good, as is normal overdive but not on a par with the Tonelab. Hi-gain is the best I tried on a modeller but still far too digital. Nevertheless, it gives me all the variety I need and I have no doubt I made the right choice. While there is clear latency when moving between patches it is surprisingly easy to work around that. Most GNX users opt for the 'Stompbox' mode where there is no lag at all so it only causes a minor problem on the very rare occassions that you need major changes in sound very quickly. Not worth the thick end of £100 in my opinion.

The Harmonic Converger arrived only a day after the GNX, which is remarkably fast from America. I was a mighty relieved man when it  worked because plenty of people had me doubting it. I even doubted my own ears so I asked various people to listen and didn't tell them when the HC was on. Every single one could tell the difference. There are certainly things that Radley claims that are true and I think other aspects of his design he makes the most of.

1) Is it simple to use?
God yes. If you can't use a HC then you must be severely brain damaged. His instructions were very much focussed on the GT8 so I had to e-mail him to know how to hook it up to the GNX. As it turned out it was easy: Out of the GNX through the headphone socket and into the HC; out of the HC and into the amp. Easy. One control to worry about and you simply turn it until the tone is right. I found between 40-50% was perfect. If you pushed it too hard the sound seemed to start disintegrating again.

2) Does it reduce 'fizz'?
Yes. Eliminates it completely to my untrained ear. I tried it on the Dimebag patch as that is very hi-gain and seemed to be very 'fizzy', though you could tell there was a good sound there trying to get out. HC switched on to about 45% and the patch was utterly transformed. It was just so smooth sounding in the way it delivered the distortion.

3) Does it make the amp models sound more valve-like?
This is slightly trickier. The simple answer is yes, it does. My GNX now seems to have a valve-like tone that is only rivalled by the Tonelab and on hi-gain models there is no other modeller that comes even close. I tried plenty of these multi FX units and all the hi-gain models were way too digital and fizzy but with the HC hooked up it really sounds the dog's danglies; VERY realistic. Radley seems to suggest that it is his HC that does this but I'm not so sure. Perhaps it does but it seems equally plausible to me that by eliminating the fizz his HC is simply allowing the amp model that was already there to really shine through. Perhaps it's a bit picky of me as the bottom line is that it does sound far more like a real valve amp now.

Bottom line? I'm VERY happy with my purchase. The Digitech GNX3000 is a fantastic piece of kit if you want an 'all in one solution' but with a Harmonic Converger attatched to it, it is simply unbeatable. I just wouldn't use the GNX without the Harmonic Converger now as the sounds are just terrible in comparison. If you use any kind of modeller then I would have no hesitation in saying that the HC will greatly improve your tone.

[Kilby]

HEy, I'm glad to hear that you ended up with the right setup.

Of course you know the next thing people will start saying don't you

Can we have some examples please ;)

I was also wondering if there is any difference in fizz if you record directly to PC (via USB) in the fizz stakes compared with the Digitech going straight into an amp or headphones ?

[Watsonica]

HEy, I'm glad to hear that you ended up with the right setup.

Of course you know the next thing people will start saying don't you

Can we have some examples please ;)

I was also wondering if there is any difference in fizz if you record directly to PC (via USB) in the fizz stakes compared with the Digitech going straight into an amp or headphones ?

This>> http://forum.thestompbox.net/showthread.php?t=5838 thread might answer your question. I believe it'd be a "yes" (with a TLSE anyway).