Author Topic: Gun Crime has to stop! (Read 4360 times)

Crazy_Joe · « **on:** August 23, 2007, 05:42:35 PM »

Yesterday an 11 YEAR OLD BOY got shot in the face and killed in Liverpool in a pub car park by (most likely) some chav on a bmx.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6959761.stm

Today there have been a double shooting just about 2 towns away from myn, luckily nobody is dead and not life threatening injuries but apparently it's all because of drugs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/6960590.stm

This is complete mayhem and i cannot believe people would do such a thing.

noodleplugerine · « **Reply #1 on:** August 23, 2007, 05:55:48 PM »

Ofcourse we all hate guncrime - And ofcourse we all wish we could prevent it - But other than being appalled by it - What do you suggest we all do?

Crazy_Joe · « **Reply #2 on:** August 23, 2007, 05:59:20 PM »

I don't know, you can't do anything about it, that's the thing.

38thBeatle · « **Reply #3 on:** August 23, 2007, 06:08:07 PM »

I agree Joe, it is atrocious. I have no real experience of these things but bearing in mind that so many firearms are banned, they do seem to be plentiful and readily available. Tragic for the family of that poor boy.

plastercaster · « **Reply #4 on:** August 23, 2007, 06:38:41 PM »

I hate to admit this, but It's got so bad I'm going to have to agree to something in the daily mail.
We should Impose punitive restrictions on every bit of anti-social behaviour, espcially drug possesion- most graffitti artist aren't killers, but most of the these young gang killers have a history of minor offences.
This stuff should be picked up on early and stopped. giving an 11 year old crim a caution won't help, he needs to be re-educated and permanently turned away from crime.
most importantly, we should try and limit re-offending
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4384374.stm
in many ways, this is just as bad as the gun crime and stabbings.
Prison is just keeping these scumbags out of the way for a few weeks, nothing more.
Parents whose children arrive at primary school $%&#ed up and already on the road to jail should be given help to stop raising there kids as yobs- sometimes Children of nice people go off the rails, but sometimes they don't know their dad, and the mums got an asbo and a crack addiction- is it any wonder they grow up to be just as bad?

WezV · « **Reply #5 on:** August 23, 2007, 07:59:03 PM »

Quote from: plastercaster

sometimes Children of nice people go off the rails, but sometimes they don't know their dad, and the mums got an asbo and a crack addiction- is it any wonder they grow up to be just as bad?

you should meet some of the kids i know who have had the most horrendous things happen in their lives or come from dreadfull situations but you would never know it from their behaviour!! They are thoroughly pleasant and often have a very realistic view of real life and there parents behaviour -

you never really know untill parents evenings, that can be quite interesting sometimes!!

the kids you expect to come from awfull homes because of their behaviour (and the stuff you know they get upto out of school) are often quite priveledged with well to do parents that are thoroughly ashamed of their child's behaviour so throw money at them to try and make it better.

believe me when i say it is not the fact a child is poor or from a broken home or has a parent with an ASBO & crack addiction that causes children to turn to more horrific crimes. these children can still have great, loving relationships with there parents/gaurdians even if society doesnt - but that doesnt mean they will end up like them, they are often vary aware of their parents failings

From my experience the 'bad' children are just as likely to come from any background

38thBeatle · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2007, 08:20:46 PM »

I am from a "broken home" and Wez is right, it doesn't automatically make you delinquent though I think the fact that there are no boundries and the scum push and push and society gives. My dad always used say "bring back national service" and I used to laugh at his old fashioned views but I must admit I can now see the merits. Would it be worth perhaps offering a guy convicted of a criminal offence a choice-jail or a chance to give something back with compulsory work clearing the place up or fixing damage, mending old peoples houses-or something constructive in a rigid environment. Allow people to gain their self respect and maybe they might become useful. If they fail to see it through they go to jail. Whatever we are doing now sure as hell aint working and the parents of this poor kid must be devastated just because some piece of cr*p wants to show how hard he is.

plastercaster · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2007, 10:49:29 PM »

Quote from: WezV

Quote from: plastercaster
sometimes Children of nice people go off the rails, but sometimes they don't know their dad, and the mums got an asbo and a crack addiction- is it any wonder they grow up to be just as bad?

From my experience the 'bad' children are just as likely to come from any background

Apologies, yes this is a sweeping generalisation.
I am from a reasonably well-to-do area, and their are plenty of middle class kids who are nasty pieces of work, and equally one of the smartest guys in our year is from a "bad" family.
But, It has been proven that kids who grow up with that kind of role model are more likely to turn to crime, just like children of smokers are more likely to smoke themselves. there's a reason that certain areas are worst- this kind of thing is exacerbated by poverty and passed down generations.

noodleplugerine · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2007, 11:02:39 PM »

Quote from: plastercaster

just like children of smokers are more likely to smoke themselves.

Is that proven?

I'm the son of a smoker - And if anything, it's put me off the idea. My friend's the son of a smoker aswell, and his father has had recurring cancer appear 7 times - I know for sure that he doesn't wanna take it up.

While I know people from families that don't smoke, who are uneducated in the experience which you gain from family members smoking and thus are naive when they take it up.

jt · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2007, 11:43:20 PM »

:D To be honest the real problem is "Aspiration". It used to be that hard work led to money, coupled with a low cost of living ment that many families tho not rich could have a descent life. There children would then want better lives but now thats all changed. Those of us that do the work are seeing none of the money or finacial rewards whilst those who appear to do nothing or break the law seem to be getting all the money. Its led to a believe thats hard to argue against. "work doesn`t pay" kids now view work as worthless, & not just the kids but adults also.

Work was a means of getting out of poverty, not any more. Is it any wonder we have a celebrity driven cultre. A never ending list of wannabes. Why ? because celebritys dont do much many have absolutley no talents what so ever do very little if anything and yet get payed absolute fortunes. wouldn`t you want to be like that ?

The only other means of getting your hands on large sums of cash is either sueing someone, how many lawsuit companys advertise on daytime tv ? or drug dealing. The police admitted on tv 10years ago that anti drug legislation wasn`t working because for every drug dealer they locked up there was another dozen waiting to take over. That figure has risen steadily over the last 10years. By the time you get to drug dealer number 4 the first ones back out of prison & on the street dealing again. The problem then is theres only so many people doing drugs which means the dealers have to lower there prices & the best way to make sure you stay in business is to have no competition hence violent crime increases. And lets not even talk about the black cultre thats leading to huge numbers of black men killing each other.

sorry for long post !

:D 8)

noodleplugerine · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2007, 11:58:01 PM »

Quote from: jt

:D To be honest the real problem is "Aspiration". It used to be that hard work led to money, coupled with a low cost of living ment that many families tho not rich could have a descent life. There children would then want better lives but now thats all changed. Those of us that do the work are seeing none of the money or finacial rewards whilst those who appear to do nothing or break the law seem to be getting all the money. Its led to a believe thats hard to argue against. "work doesn`t pay" kids now view work as worthless, & not just the kids but adults also.

Work was a means of getting out of poverty, not any more. Is it any wonder we have a celebrity driven cultre. A never ending list of wannabes. Why ? because celebritys dont do much many have absolutley no talents what so ever do very little if anything and yet get payed absolute fortunes. wouldn`t you want to be like that ?

The only other means of getting your hands on large sums of cash is either sueing someone, how many lawsuit companys advertise on daytime tv ? or drug dealing. The police admitted on tv 10years ago that anti drug legislation wasn`t working because for every drug dealer they locked up there was another dozen waiting to take over. That figure has risen steadily over the last 10years. By the time you get to drug dealer number 4 the first ones back out of prison & on the street dealing again. The problem then is theres only so many people doing drugs which means the dealers have to lower there prices & the best way to make sure you stay in business is to have no competition hence violent crime increases. And lets not even talk about the black cultre thats leading to huge numbers of black men killing each other.

sorry for long post !

:D 8)

PLEASE DON'T MAKE ANY MORE POSTS.

YOUR POST COUNT IS 1337!!! :D :D :D

Just thought I'd say that...

apmaman · « **Reply #11 on:** August 24, 2007, 12:31:22 AM »

z0mg teh 1337orz !!!!!!!!!eleven!!!!

I agree, its a disgrace.

I wonder how they get into the UK though. Its illegal to own handguns and im sure some come over the boarder but there must be corruption in the police or something for the amount of guns in that are in the streets.

EDIT: Second thoughts... Maybe not. I got my ibanez got through customs with no tax added to it or anything. Damn, if only there was an AK-47 in the case instead of my guitar....

WezV · « **Reply #12 on:** August 24, 2007, 10:32:24 AM »

Quote from: plastercaster

But, It has been proven that kids who grow up with that kind of role model are more likely to turn to crime, just like children of smokers are more likely to smoke themselves. there's a reason that certain areas are worst- this kind of thing is exacerbated by poverty and passed down generations.

Well since i have missed the day job for the last 5 weeks lets have a basic sociology lesson.

If you look at crime statistics you can clearly see that crime is more prevelant in apparently poorer areas. Its too easy to turn round and say that its because they are poor or have bad family backgrounds.

The marxist view would be that the legal system reflects the values and beliefs of people higher up in society and is therefore more likely to label the behaviour of the lower classes as criminal. people do deviant things in all levels of society but if you are rich you are an eccentric, if you are poor you are a criminal.

Thats all a bit basic and you may or may not agree with it. My point is that its a bit too easy to blame the parents when its really society as a whole that is failing these 'bad' children. As a teacher i have no punishment i can offer that actually means anything or bothers these children and to be honest i have no desire to be beating the kids either. Parents now a days really are limited in options for disciplining children and that is true in all levels of society... i personally will be interested to see if the supernanny generation is gonna be any different. In theory we should be getting a lot more good parenting skills re introduced to society now shows like that are so popular - - -now go sit on the naugty step :P

Crazy_Joe · « **Reply #13 on:** August 24, 2007, 12:38:44 PM »

The two men hurt in the double Letchworth shooting yesterday are still in a serious condition in hospital, one with leg injuries and one with an injured back, according the the BBC website.

Personally, i think it's part of the government's fault because of the past few years they have been concentrating on foreign affairs and not on what imo is more important, the stuff going on in their OWN country.
We need to get out of war in Iraq and rebuild our own country because at this point in time society is DIRE if i'm going to be honest. People can't walk through the streets without a yob coming up to them and getting lippy.

Simon D · « **Reply #14 on:** August 26, 2007, 05:15:15 PM »

^ Joe, I agree that society is in a dire state, and I also agree that it is difficult to walk around the place without being on the recieving end of some bullshitee unsolicited abuse.

I do accept that the goverment has to shoulder some of the blame here, but it is a cultural as well as a political problem - there is no one thing to point to and blame entirely.

Too much emphasis is placed these days on rights, but far too little upon responsiblities. Some of the little cretins who act in an anti-social manner, when challenged on their actions, say they have the right to do whatever they want. What they don't understand is that they are infringing on the rights of others to go about their lives without fear of intimidation, assault etc. As much as I hate to admit it, those who claim there is a lack of respect in society today are right.

What I don't agree with (without wishing to hijack the thread) is your statement that we should pull out of Iraq. I opposed the invasion - it seemed like it was being done for all the wrong reasons, riding the USA's coat-tails clutching some very suspect intelligence. However, I believe that, having invaded, deposed Saddam and put the average Iraqi citizen in a bloody awful position, we are now morally obligated to clear up the situation.

Just my two cents. Sorry for the essay.