re-fret advice

[blue]

so, i got a new (old) guitar recently, a 70's Les Paul.  it was very much in need of a re-fret, so i asked around about who was the best guy, took it to him, and today it arrived home, with me £90 lighter.  problem; all the frets look a little low, but the upper frets in particular have been filed so low that if i bend or use vibrato my fingers are rubbing on the wood of the fretboard.

clearly this is not good, and not what i wanted.  i'm guessing it also needed a new nut?  so, when i go back to him, should i look for the job redone for free, or look for a compromise, or write it off as a bad experience and get it done somewhere else?

also, he says that the previous frets were glued in, and as a result he couldn't avoid pulling out some bits of wood from the board, which have been rather ham-fistedly repaired.  does this sound right, or is he covering up his own mistake? i was prepared to believe him until i saw the filed-to-nothing frets!

[HTH AMPS]

If he's filed the fret too low then it needs redone, plain and simple.  Have the frets been drastically reprofiled from the undressed shape?

 :twisted:

[Oli]

I'm by no means the best person to answer this- Jonathon and Wes are far more knowledgeable on the subject, but i'll share my thoughts nonetheless :)

You say the guitar was very much in need of a refret- did the tech discuss fret sizing with you, or did he say he'd install the same size fretwire? He might have used smaller fretwire instead of a larger variant more suited to a Les Paul. Frets can be glued in, and it wouldn't be uncommon that damage occured during the removal- it can happen with non-glued frets, but if it's very severe the tech has done a bad job.

Did the guy just replace the nut off the bat, or has he not cut the nut slots deeper to match the new lowered fret height? The latter i would have expected to be done automatically as part of the refret.

If you could provide a picture or two of the fret heights and damage, we might be able to assess the situation a little more accurately. Personally if the frets were going to be a vastly different height, and there was a possibility of damage, i'd have expected the tech to mention it.

[FELINEGUITARS]

so, i got a new (old) guitar recently, a 70's Les Paul.  it was very much in need of a re-fret, so i asked around about who was the best guy, took it to him, and today it arrived home, with me £90 lighter.  problem; all the frets look a little low, but the upper frets in particular have been filed so low that if i bend or use vibrato my fingers are rubbing on the wood of the fretboard.]

To me it sounds like the fingerboard was in need of levelling - not unusual on a guitar of any age let alone 30 years old
If it was just a fret dress that was being done, then I can understand that the frets would maybe need drastic levelling to rectify uneveness in the fingerboard
If the guitar has been refretted then surely he would have had an opportunity to level the fingerboard and thereby not have to do so much levelling of the frets as they would be going into a nice level board

That is what we do, but we do charge more for such a job as it is very time consuming - also London prices!

Bound neck refret £150 (unbound £130)
Level fingerboard £20
New nut £20-30 (+£25 Earvana if done during refret)

clearly this is not good, and not what i wanted.  i'm guessing it also needed a new nut?  so, when i go back to him, should i look for the job redone for free, or look for a compromise, or write it off as a bad experience and get it done somewhere else?

Tough one to call - might be worth talking to him as you would not expect frets to be all worn out after a refret.
Ask if he levelled the fingerboard and about what problems he ran into.
If he is well known and well used locally he wont want a bad job to be out there or an unhappy customer

But if there is a lot more work required than he had originally quoted you for because of the uneven fingerboard, be man enough to offer to pay him for the additional work required to level the board (£20-30) if he is willing to redo the job for you as it will be time consuming to put it all right and that gesture will be an act of good faith.

also, he says that the previous frets were glued in, and as a result he couldn't avoid pulling out some bits of wood from the board, which have been rather ham-fistedly repaired.  does this sound right, or is he covering up his own mistake? i was prepared to believe him until i saw the filed-to-nothing frets!

I usually heat the frets carefully with a soldering iron to break any glue joint first , but care must be taken when doing this .
I always assume frets are glued in & try heating them, so as not to be surprised when they are glued.
However some woods can be really prone to chipping when removing frets, and even very skilled techs have trouble with them.

Hope this helps

[blue]

thanks for the answers guys, i think Jonathon's level headed approach sounds about right, i'll give him a ring tomorrow and see what we can sort out.

he didn't actually replace the nut.  i don't know if it's the original nut, but it's definately old.  i'm thinking the slots are pretty low in it and he dressed away the frets to match it, although Jonathon could be right about the uneven fretboard too.  we'll see what the craic is when i talk to him tomorrow.

thanks again, and i'll let you know how it all turns out.

[WezV]

I usually heat the frets carefully with a soldering iron to break any glue joint first

Mines a soldering gun with the nib split in two so the fret actually completes the circuit and warms quicker.

The heat really does help a hell of a lot, even if they are epoxied in place they will release quite easily but wood is wood and occasionally you will get a bitch of a fretboard that chips out really easily.  The point is that you allow for this when removing the frets, i personally have masking tape either side of the fret if i think its going to be a difficult board - this will hold any chips in place and i can run a little superglue in to hold them in place - once the board is levelled you would never know!!

OK, sometimes chips go missing - its still easy to make am almost invisible repair....as long as its not a maple bloody fretboard.


As far as frets getting lower at the end of the neck, i have heard this technique suggested to help prevent fretting out at the top of the neck... it does make sense on set-neck guitars to have a little drop away but it should be an inperceivable difference.


It is hard for us to judge without seeing it though.  £90 is cheap for a bound neck refret.  If the chips have been repaired so they board is smooth, the frets are level, play without buzz, and all have a suitable crown on them then you got a good refret for the price you payed - what may be bothering you is the difference from how it was before and that is always an issue when having a guitar refretted.

If the guys seems resonable when you talk to him then see if you can reach a compromise, its also worth talking about exactly what you want from the refret and how he will achieve that because we all do it slightly differently and he may have a lot of customers that have liked the fretboard drop off so they can get lower buzz free actions

[blue]

the frets aren't actually any lower at the top than near the nut, it's just more noticeable because i do more bending and vibrato up there.  also, the frets on the treble side have been dressed so low that there's barely a crown on them!  when i bend, the string is rubbing against the board.  it is actually better than it was, as the old frets were virtually gone, but i don't feel it's good enough.  i haven't been able to get him on the phone yet, but i'm hoping when i do this can be resolved amicably, i'm not looking to fall out with anyone.  

aahhhh, why do these things always seem to go wrong!?!

[FELINEGUITARS]

As far as frets getting lower at the end of the neck, i have heard this technique suggested to help prevent fretting out at the top of the neck... it does make sense on set-neck guitars to have a little drop away but it should be an inperceivable difference.

Yes - but that "fall away" at the high end can be levelled into the wood to allow you to keep full fret height - or as close as possible.

the frets aren't actually any lower at the top than near the nut, it's just more noticeable because i do more bending and vibrato up there. also, the frets on the treble side have been dressed so low that there's barely a crown on them! when i bend, the string is rubbing against the board. it is actually better than it was, as the old frets were virtually gone, but i don't feel it's good enough.

Did you discuss which wire he was gonna use?
Did you go for a tall one or just one that was similar to the old one?

A tall one would probably need a new nut- as the old nut would be cut too low

[blue]

well, i just spoke to him.  he says he doesn't know what i'm talking about, there's nothing wrong with the nut.  what do i mean the frets are too low, he doesn't understand.  i said i felt it needed done again, he said if i'm not happy i should get someone else to sort it out and hung up on me.  i'm finding it hard to type here because my hands are shaking with anger!  this guy was recommended to me by several people, but you can be damn sure he won't be getting any recommendations from me.

[dave_mc]

you wouldn't mind pm-ing me with who did the fret job? i got a fret job done a while back by a guy over here, and he did a pretty good job. if you used a different guy, this guy might be able to sort things out.

Though of course, that'll be no consolation for the (as it sounds) botched repair job.

:drink:

[HTH AMPS]

he said if i'm not happy i should get someone else to sort it out and hung up on me.  

That would be the point where I'd be driving to his place to break the guitar over his f'in head.  Go round there and muscle the guy, he's shown himself to be unreasonable so you have to resort to caveman tactics.  If you're not a physical type of guy, take someone who is.  

I had a similar situation with a shop who sold my amp then kept me hanging on for the money because they'd taken a p/ex against it.  F*uck you, pay me was my response and told them if my cash wasn't there when I came down there would be trouble.  I took a few brutish mates along with me for visual effect and what do you know, the cash was forthcoming.  You don't necessarily have to 'do' anything, you just have to manipulate the situation so that the other guy thinks you will.

 :twisted:

[WezV]

if possible take some nice clear photos of the bits you are not happy with, particularly the chipped areas and the lower frets - with a ruler or vernier in place if you can.

if you can actually quantify the issues it might be worth checking with citizens advice and trading standards to see if you have any leg to stand on... at this point it might just help to get your money back if it shows the fella that you are serious.

you obviously dont want the guy touching the guitar again so a partial refund is about the most you can expect.

His previous reputation probably comes from the fact he does alright work pretty cheap - that seems to make a lot of people happier than good work that costs more.

As far as frets getting lower at the end of the neck, i have heard this technique suggested to help prevent fretting out at the top of the neck... it does make sense on set-neck guitars to have a little drop away but it should be an inperceivable difference.  

Yes - but that "fall away" at the high end can be levelled into the wood to allow you to keep full fret height - or as close as possible.

 definately the best way, but it doesnt sound like this guy put much effort into the fretboard before refretting - especially with the chip issues...  i suspected he might mention this to try and justify the lower frets at that end of the neck so thought blue should be fully aware of that issue before speaking to him.  Its not something i do on most guitars, although it has come in handy before when doing cheap and cheerfull setups/fretdressing for mates - i much prefer to get it all as level as possible though

[blue]

well, the guitar is now with another guy, who i was going to go to in the first place, but the one that did the job was 25 miles closer.  anyway, hoping i won't get burned again!  he showed me some of his work, including one of his own builds, and we went through different fret wires to pick the one i wanted.  he couldn't believe the job the other guy had done, said it was a total hack job.  so it's getting it's second re-fret in a week!  he's gonna pull the frets, skim the board and put in the new nut and frets.

i've never had to get any serious work done before, one fret dress a couple of years ago.  all other minor set-up and wiring work i've worked out how to do myself.  i felt that recommendations and the pride someone should take in their work meant i would be safe enough with the man i entrusted with my guitar, just goes to show i'm too trusting.

i'm not quite sure yet what i'm going to do about the first guy, i would certainly like my money back, but i fear it's a lost cause.  from what i'm told any heavy handed tactics would be detrimental to my own health!  and it doesn't look like he has any intention of being reasonable.

anyway, very long post there.  should have the guitar back by Thursday and then i hope to be able to put this whole sorry mess behind me.  and to post some pictures of my '75 (same age as me you see) Les Paul!

(stay optimistic, stay optimistic, stay optimistic)

[WezV]

Its always nice when you can see someones work before hand

[dave_mc]

yeah, the new guy blue has dropped his guitar into did a fret dress/crown for me a few years ago and did a very good job, at a good price. So hopefully he can get the guitar back to the way it should be...