Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: syr2012 on May 14, 2009, 07:30:24 AM
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Hello all, just business as usual, trying to kill time while waiting for my Raw Nickel HD to arrive. I've heard that it's similar to the Duncan JB (only better). I tried a guitar with the JB unwittingly (I just wanted to try something with a coil split). The full-on humbucker sound was pretty decent, cleaned up very well, didn't crunch too nicely in my experience, but distorted very well. Its coil split kinda held its own, volume drop is a given, but it was quite stratty, and not in the good way. To be painfully honest, its split was weak, thin, and uninspiring, and I'd definitely keep that push-pull in the "push" position. I heard earlier that the HD has more of a P-90 sound when split, it crunches well, harmonics and (fake) sustain were pleasing, and that it's not a well match for a dark guitar. Is there anything else that I should look forward to?
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Probably not.
Just get, fit it and play it :)
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Its not like the modern JB, its like the original JB.
Never played an old JB, so someone else, if they so desire, will have to chime in with the difference.
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i didn't even know there was a difference between earlier and late JBs, but for sure the JBs i had (contemporary models) sounded nowhere close the Holy Divers... much thicker, with less hi-mids and a different attack.
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Apparently theres significant difference between the JB when it was first released and now. Dont know what, but this is what I've heard.
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As far as I know (maybe I don't remember well), the 'old' JB was more around DC14K whereas the 'new' JB is around 16.4K.
The 'old' one had more dynamics, was more clear, less mudd, more straight talking, and agressive in a good tasty way.
Anyway I remember Tim telling me the closest to the 'new' JB BKP makes, is the HD.
But as BKP cure lots of duncan drawbacks we can say the HD has some of the advantages of the old JB voicing, with the new JB specifications (if it does make sense :mrgreen:).
As for me, I am guessing the closest BKP to the old JB *might* be the rebell yell. :roll:
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Might be, yeah. Philking knows this stuff. Its definately the RY or the HD.
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From what I've read, this 'old' / 'new' JB is rubbish. The specs have never changed according to Seymour Duncan himself.
In my opinion, the difference over the years is the quality of the guitars they've been put in. The pickups have remained fairly constant aside from any slight manufacturing changes in the raw materials.
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From what I've read, this 'old' / 'new' JB is rubbish. The specs have never changed according to Seymour Duncan himself.
In my opinion, the difference over the years is the quality of the guitars they've been put in. The pickups have remained fairly constant aside from any slight manufacturing changes in the raw materials.
Oooh, that'll set the cat amongst the pigeons. Potentially, almost as controversial as that ol' chestnut "Bill & Becky vs. Bill Lawrence USA". :P
Or maybe not.
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Ruh roh....
You fellas can have at it...I've heard some very contradictory information on this
I will say, in a general sense, not about the JB per se, that two pickups can look identical on paper and sound totally different...its in the wind...you should know that dave!
*Slowly backs away*
*starts running*
Bye!
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To answer the original question, here (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6308.0) were my first impressions from swapping a JB out for a Holy Diver...
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From what I've read, this 'old' / 'new' JB is rubbish. The specs have never changed according to Seymour Duncan himself.
In my opinion, the difference over the years is the quality of the guitars they've been put in. The pickups have remained fairly constant aside from any slight manufacturing changes in the raw materials.
Not entirely convinced about this.
I've always believed the legend of the "old" JB because while the specs may not have changed, I actually have a NOS JB. It certainly sounds different to the modern JB that was in my trusty RR1T (& the JBs I had in several other guitars - Jackson fit them as stock these days). It's hard to describe (especially as I've since BKP'd all my other guitars that had JBs :)) but the NOS one seemed to have more "bite" & "chunk" to it. Palm mutes seemed to respond in a way they didn't on the other guitars. I don't have the meter-thingy to measure the DCR of it...
I mention my RR1T because the guitar that has the NOS JB is a ltd edition Jackson Rhoads "original". Same woods, same neck-thru construction, same body shape, similar weight, built in the same factory.
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How old is your NOS JB, Antag?
I've never been clear when the "old JB"/"new JB" demarcation line is supposed to be.
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From what I've read, this 'old' / 'new' JB is rubbish. The specs have never changed according to Seymour Duncan himself.
In my opinion, the difference over the years is the quality of the guitars they've been put in. The pickups have remained fairly constant aside from any slight manufacturing changes in the raw materials.
Oooh, that'll set the cat amongst the pigeons. Potentially, almost as controversial as that ol' chestnut "Bill & Becky vs. Bill Lawrence USA". :P
Or maybe not.
I'm not sure how relevant this is but a few years back ESP (who are the Japanese distributor for Seymour Duncan) commissioned "Prototype JBs" from the SD custom shop. Apparently this is a remake of the original pickup that Seymour made for Jeff's Tele, and it's 18k AII (the neck is about 17.9k), with a mid peak from 1kHz to 3kHz.
Certainly a little different to the regular AV model.
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Yeah, good point. I think they still use "Prototype" JBs on the Edwards copies of Beck's "TeleGib".
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How old is your NOS JB, Antag?
Hard to say. The guitar was built '94-'95, but the JB was supposedly much older than that. The dealer I got it from told me it had an "old stock" JB. I'm convinced it sounds different to every other JB I've had (& I've had at least seven of them).
Actually it's just occurred to me that NOS is the wrong term. "New old stock" is something built new to replicate an old thing. Mine actually is an old one :)
I've never been clear when the "old JB"/"new JB" demarcation line is supposed to be.
AFAIK, the old ones date from the early 80s. I didn't actually hear about the new/old JB thing until years after I got the guitar. At the time I had just assumed the "old stock" thing meant that it had sat on a shelf somewhere & had been made before they stamped Seymour Duncan on the pickups. Of course I soon realised that it sounded a little different :)
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Actually it's just occurred to me that NOS is the wrong term. "New old stock" is something built new to replicate an old thing. Mine actually is an old one :)
Really? I thought 'new old stock' means something that's new (not been used before) but old (ie been sat on a shelf for a while). Is this not the case? Maybe these should be termed ONS: old new stock, to clear up any potential confusion on the matter :roll:
Roo
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Actually it's just occurred to me that NOS is the wrong term. "New old stock" is something built new to replicate an old thing. Mine actually is an old one :)
Really? I thought 'new old stock' means something that's new (not been used before) but old (ie been sat on a shelf for a while). Is this not the case? Maybe these should be termed ONS: old new stock, to clear up any potential confusion on the matter :roll:
Roo
Well, that's how Fender custom shop use the term - I'm fairly sure the "NOS" custom shop Fenders haven't actually been sitting in a cupboard for 50+ years... :)
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Its my understanding that NOS is stuff thats made exactly the same way as it once was. Same materials, design, method, the lot. Supposedly identical to old, but new.
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That could be wrong of course, Roos definitions sounds quite good too.
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Actually it's just occurred to me that NOS is the wrong term. "New old stock" is something built new to replicate an old thing. Mine actually is an old one :)
Really? I thought 'new old stock' means something that's new (not been used before) but old (ie been sat on a shelf for a while). Is this not the case?
I thought the same as you, Roo. Isn't that what NOS valves (for example) are all about? The companies that made them don't exist any more, in some cases.
Wouldn't something built new to replicate an old thing just be called a replica or reissue?
Well, that's how Fender custom shop use the term - I'm fairly sure the "NOS" custom shop Fenders haven't actually been sitting in a cupboard for 50+ years... :)
Ah yes, but they're pretend "NOS". They're just reissues, but you're supposed to think they look like an old guitar that's been sitting unused in its case under someone's bed for 40 years! :)
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"NOS" (New Old Stock) is something sold as new (not used), but that it's from an old stock
not the same as "VOS" (Vintage Original Specs), which is used for replicas and reissues with minimum spec changes
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an "old" JB should have a "JBJ" (JB Juarez) sticker or something, which means it was personally wound by Maricela Juarez (the woman behind everything Duncan for over 25 years :lol:)
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an "old" JB should have a "JBJ" (JB Juarez) sticker or something, which means it was personally wound by Maricela Juarez (the woman behind everything Duncan for over 25 years :lol:)
Is that serious? I'm pretty sure I've got one of those.
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I've got one in my '87 Kramer Baretta ;)
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Really? I thought 'new old stock' means something that's new (not been used before) but old (ie been sat on a shelf for a while). Is this not the case?
Roo
that's the correct definition, as far as i'm aware. NOS valves, for example, are old valves made in the west, but which had never been sold (well, if the seller is honest, anyway :lol: ). They aren't new valves made to replicate them.
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I'm not sure about this "JBJ" sticker thing. I've also got a JB Trembucker which I probably bought around 1990/91.... and it has a "TB4J" sticker. Surely Maricela Juarez didn't wind that one too?
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"NOS" (New Old Stock) is something sold as new (not used), but that it's from an old stock
not the same as "VOS" (Vintage Original Specs), which is used for replicas and reissues with minimum spec changes
One sees, cheers.
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I think Antag is right :
AFAIK, the old ones date from the early 80s. I didn't actually hear about the new/old JB thing until years after I got the guitar. At the time I had just assumed the "old stock" thing meant that it had sat on a shelf somewhere & had been made before they stamped Seymour Duncan on the pickups. Of course I soon realised that it sounded a little different :)
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I'm not sure about this "JBJ" sticker thing. I've also got a JB Trembucker which I probably bought around 1990/91.... and it has a "TB4J" sticker. Surely Maricela Juarez didn't wind that one too?
if it has a J, then she did
she still is the custom shop manager
seymour is just a salesman :lol:
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I'm not sure about this "JBJ" sticker thing. I've also got a JB Trembucker which I probably bought around 1990/91.... and it has a "TB4J" sticker. Surely Maricela Juarez didn't wind that one too?
Yep - that's what the J means ;)
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I'm not sure about this "JBJ" sticker thing. I've also got a JB Trembucker which I probably bought around 1990/91.... and it has a "TB4J" sticker. Surely Maricela Juarez didn't wind that one too?
if it has a J, then she did
she still is the custom shop manager
seymour is just a salesman :lol:
Pretty much interesting input Eric !
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I'm not sure about this "JBJ" sticker thing. I've also got a JB Trembucker which I probably bought around 1990/91.... and it has a "TB4J" sticker. Surely Maricela Juarez didn't wind that one too?
if it has a J, then she did
she still is the custom shop manager
seymour is just a salesman :lol:
OK, that's good. :D
But then the "J"/Maricela sticker can't mean that these are the magical "old" JBs. Mine are (I think) 1985 and 1990 and (to my untrained ears) they don't sound significantly different from the more recent ones I've owned. I thought the "old" ones went back further than that.... but again, I wish I knew when they're supposed to have "changed". :?
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I didnt know you where on rig-talk whats your username
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I have played a few Duncan JBs. One was in a custom guitar I played in the late 80s, so I guess this was an old one. It replaced an OBL ("Original Bill Lawrence") L-500XL. The guitar still sounded thin. BTW I later had EMGs in this guitar (81 in the bridge) which made it sound even thinner.
The next I had in a Gold Top Les Paul, which I acquired in 1991, so I guess this is an old one, too. Absolutely muddy, no cut at all. The volume control just worked like an "On-off-switch" with no possibility to clean up the tone. I quickly replaced this mudbucker with a SD 59. Much better.
Most recently I had one in my Korean Brian Moore guitar (came stock with it - definitely a new one). This is a bright guitar. The JB sounded thin and muddy at the same time which is quite an achievement. I replaced it with a DiMarzio Tone Zone which has a lot more power and punch - OK it cannot be cleaned up with the volume control either. I tried this JB in a different guitar - same verdict.
My opinion about the JB: one of the most overhyped p.o.s. It has too much output for dynamic playing and not enough punch for harder styles. Worst of all worlds. It was not even on the long list when I decided to replace the pickups in my PRS Custom, which is not a bright guitar.
The Holydiver feels at home in this guitar. It is dynamic, has punch and is not muddy. To me the Holydiver sounds nothing like a JB - thank God!
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I still say it's all down to the guitars.
The JB will have been tested and specced up for guitars available in the early eighties. Woods used and construction methods were different back then.
The HD was designed recently, using more recent guitars, hence it works well in new guitars.
The interesting test would be to put a brand new JB and HD into in both an eighties guitar and a new guitar. If anyone has a new JB knocking about I wouldn't mind testing it back-to-back in my PRS McCarty with the current HD, and I can compare it with my 80s Ibanez RG (plus the old JB in my '87 Baretta)................
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I have a 92 Berlin fitted with a JB at the bridge (original) and a 94 Berlin with HDs, I have been doing a A/B and I really can't find much in common in their sound, the JB is much brighter (thinner!) and lacks what we all buy BKPs for, that quality of sound that is hard to describe, we just know when we hear it.
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The specs are really different and to me the sound is totally different having had both - my original JB (which is so old that there is no mention of Seymour Duncan anywhere on it and it only has the sticker on the baseplate, which I am pretty certain is just JB), has a DC resistance of 14.74K and has a different reading in each coil (I think 7.22 and 7.52), the spec on the new one is 16.4 K. The new one to me is a very 'closed' pickup and is a dark sound, whereas the old one is a really nice sounding pickup and works really well as a neck pickup with a PAF style neck pickup (I have it witk a 1990/91 Pearly Gates - with a PGNJ sticker). I gave away the newer one (which was a 90's one), because I couldn't stand the sound of it.
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I still say it's all down to the guitars.
The JB will have been tested and specced up for guitars available in the early eighties. Woods used and construction methods were different back then.
The HD was designed recently, using more recent guitars, hence it works well in new guitars.
The interesting test would be to put a brand new JB and HD into in both an eighties guitar and a new guitar. If anyone has a new JB knocking about I wouldn't mind testing it back-to-back in my PRS McCarty with the current HD, and I can compare it with my 80s Ibanez RG (plus the old JB in my '87 Baretta)................
I dont know why youre stressing that the difference in JBs is new Vs old guitars.
At the risk of starting one of those lovely "Vintage" guitar divergences, youre suggesting a consistent difference in tone between old and new instruments leading to two families of sound....due to the guitar, not the pickups or the amps or the players, the guitar
I dont see how thats in the least a sensible position. All the old giutars I've played have sounded very comparable to all the new guitars, and I just cant see how it would come about. Have trees mutated that much in 30 years? Steels vibration transmision properties altered?
That is of course an argument from incredulity, so go ahead and tell us why old guitars Vs new guitars make the old JB sound different, and why they dont make all pickups sound different :)
I'd like to double-blind test this once and for all
No one gets to play the guitar, cos feel can give it away. Maybe blindfolded if they're the same model or old vs VOS. They listen to them, all playing the same thing through the same gear.
One batch of old guitars, one of new guitars. Same pickups and setup given to all guitars.
Group 1 - told rank the guitars, told nothing about the guitars. Control group.
Group 2 - told that some of the guitars are vintage, told which are vintage and told to rank the guitars
Group 3 - Told that some of the guitars are vintage, but lied to and told that the new guitars are the vintage ones
Group 4 - Asked to identify the vintage and the new guitars by sound alone.
I'll be your next PRS that the tests would show that the control showed no preference, those that are told that there are vintages in there like the vintages better and those that are asked to indefify which is which will do no better than chance.
Volunteers?
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I'm sure the luthiers on the forum can comment on the quality of wood available now compared to the volume of guitars produced and how that would affect things. Maybe I'm wrong?
I think the comparison of old JB versus new JB in the same guitar would be the most interesting comparison...
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I'm sure the luthiers on the forum can comment on the quality of wood available now compared to the volume of guitars produced and how that would affect things. Maybe I'm wrong?
I think the comparison of old JB versus new JB in the same guitar would be the most interesting comparison...
For thist specifically, yes, but of course.
I still want to do the sound Vs perception of vintage stuff. And everything else for that matter.
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I'm sure the luthiers on the forum can comment on the quality of wood available now compared to the volume of guitars produced and how that would affect things. Maybe I'm wrong?
I think the comparison of old JB versus new JB in the same guitar would be the most interesting comparison...
For thist specifically, yes, but of course.
I still want to do the sound Vs perception of vintage stuff. And everything else for that matter.
You need to get out more and meet some chicks dude...
That's kinda the best part about playing guitar.... PDT_038 PDT_017
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Not to be all stodgy or anything, but I was wondering more about the qualities of the Holydiver. As darkbluemurder said, I did realize that the JB gets quite muddy and doesn't offer a crisp crunch - which is antithetical to my wants/needs. I want to know more about the split qualities of the HD. My guitar seems to eat highs and mids a little bit, so I'm glad I didn't shoot for the overwind. After several days of searching, I found a push-pull pot, I'm thinking about either wiring it as the volume or using the push-pull only, as I don't want another tone pot in my guitar, and the HD is probably my only pickup in that guitar. Has anyone tried 1 meg pots with the HD? What should I expect if I try it?
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HD isn't big on high mid and top end crunch in my guitar. It's more low mid growl.
Sounds like you want a Rebel Yell?
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A 20 year old guitar or a 30 or 40 year old one is unlikely to sound as it did when it was produced wood ages and changes some will improve some will become rubbish a lot will depend on how they are cared for. The act of playing them alters the wood over a long time vibrations in the body will change the timber, the fibres will age and change futher.
In some instruments age makes them superb in others it makes them awful. Pianos tend to sound best between 10 and 70 years old and even during that period many components will be refreshed, violins tend to sound better >100 years old but bows need to be much newer. Brass instrumenst last about 15 to 25 years.
Joints that are glued will change usually becoming slack and needing attention there are lots of other things that could change.
It is intersting to note that often old instruments on average may well sound better than newer ones - why - well its a case of un-natural selection the good ones are kept and cherished and looked after the bad ones end up in skips and landfill.
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Well, there are lots of vintage guitars/Gibsons (from about 20, 30, 40 years old) that look like garbage from the outside,
but with a tone to die for.
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I still say it's all down to the guitars.
The JB will have been tested and specced up for guitars available in the early eighties. Woods used and construction methods were different back then.
The HD was designed recently, using more recent guitars, hence it works well in new guitars.
The interesting test would be to put a brand new JB and HD into in both an eighties guitar and a new guitar. If anyone has a new JB knocking about I wouldn't mind testing it back-to-back in my PRS McCarty with the current HD, and I can compare it with my 80s Ibanez RG (plus the old JB in my '87 Baretta)................
I agree with every word you're saying. It's always the guitar thats responsible for the tone (old wood, different construction methods, aging + the fact that every piece of wood has been unique since the first tree on earth. A brand-new Gibson Les Paul Custom with HD's or JB's will of course sound different compared to an old Les Paul Custom with HD's or JB's. The older one will most likely sound more 'vintage' with a different character/vibe.
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HD isn't big on high mid and top end crunch in my guitar. It's more low mid growl.
Sounds like you want a Rebel Yell?
Well, the 'diver is already ordered, and after this wait, I'm gonna be kinda screwed if it's not the right pickup. I've been looking for more of a roar lately, and the MQ that sits in the bridge now will always be available in my other guitar if I want a sparkle. I'm also disconnecting the tone pot, and considering wiring a push-pull for the volume and that'll be it.