Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: BigB on February 08, 2010, 02:06:08 PM
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Ok, I already posted about this one last year, but a couple things happened since - notably a '62 RI Custom tele with BGF50s, killer pups FWIW - and my mind and needs may have change a little.
So, first, the guitar (NB : Fernando, before you ask, the pic is below :wink:) - already presented it, but let's start again so you don't have to browse the whole forum. It's a '81 MIJ (matsumoku built) Vox Standard 25, strat-like (but not just a strat copy), thick maple neck, maple touchboard, very thick and heavy maple body - man gotta love maple :mrgreen: - SSS config, vintage-style trem bridge. The stock pups are DM FS-1 (think: early Dire Straits or Gilmour/The Wall
area).
Unplugged, it's very resonant, and kind of bright as you would expect. Pretty good sustain - seen better, but still above average.
Plugged, it has tight but present bottom end - more than the Tele actually, don't know if it comes from the wood or the pups - and indeed quite a lot of highs, a bit on the fizzy side FWIW. It can be sweet sounding on the neck pup, and has a mostly good balance on positions 2 & 4. Middle position is kinda middy sounding - can be nice under OD but not very pleasant clean - and the bridge position is (as often) just to thin, trebbly and bordering on ice-pick to be of any use.
Globally, I kind of like the cleans, I think there's a pretty good potential here with less compressed pups. Mild OD/Crunch tones are a bit fizzy to my taste but could do well for bluesy stuff - here again, less compressed pups might work better. Higher gain settings don't work that well to me - too fizzy/fuzzy (probably a result of the maple touchboard ?), but still can get some decent distorted lead tones on the neck.
I first planned on making this guitar a very rockin' one to complement the Vox Custom 24, but the Tele took this place, so I'm now much more open-minded. Also, my experience with the BGF50s is a bit of revelation - I never thought vintage single-coils could sound so hot yet so airy and alive, so... Well, I don't really have special plans for this guitar no more, except trying to find the "right" pups for it - that is, the pups that will "reveal" _this_ guitar's tone, whatever it happens to sound like in the end - let it be, amen.
So gentlemen (sorry, not a lot of ladies around here I'm afraid), what would you do with this guitar ?
(http://sd-7034.dedibox.fr/vox/imgp1102.jpg)
PS : as far as I'm concerned, I'd be tempted to try either MotherMilk or the new, yet undescribed 62-spec'd strat set, but I'm opened to any suggestion...
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If it was me, I'd go for a set of base-plated SULTANS'
Why Sultans'? Because I love the Sultans mid/neck I have in my Warmoth strat.
Why base-plated? Because I have non-plated Slowhand mid/neck in one guitar & plated Slowhand neck in another. It's a night and day difference (OK the one with plated SH is a nicer guitar all round but a lot of it must be down to the difference between the pickups...)
So I'm thinking that Sultans with base plates would be fantastic.
On the subject of power, I agree with your comment "I never thought vintage single-coils could sound so hot yet so airy and alive". FWIW, my Warmoth strat has a Nailbomb in the bridge & the Sultans' balance pretty well with it. Clip here (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13355.0)
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Apaches?
That guitar screams out for subtle bar shimmers and slapback to me.
Alternatively you could go for something more Hendrixy with some Irish Tours or Mother's Milks.
If it's a bit too zingy as is I'd be tempted to put a baseplate on the bridge if I were you.
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(NB : Fernando, before you ask, the pic is below :wink:)
Seems like you're learning well, little grasshopper! :D
Looks cool!
Is the pickups positions are in the same positions than a normal Strat? I think they're a bit closer than usual...
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If it was me, I'd go for a set of base-plated SULTANS'
Why Sultans'? Because I love the Sultans mid/neck I have in my Warmoth strat.
That makes at least a very subjective (hence very good) argument :mrgreen:
Why base-plated? Because I have non-plated Slowhand mid/neck in one guitar & plated Slowhand neck in another. It's a night and day difference
Care to elaborate ? I did read the FAQ but have no direct experience here.
Also, if I understand correctly, one of the primary reasons for the baseplate is to beef up the bridge a bit so it balances better with the (non-baseplated) middle and neck, so I guess this benefice is lost with baseplates on all three pups ?
Apaches?
That guitar screams out for subtle bar shimmers and slapback to me.
Well yes, I do like these tones too - even if on different kind of musics (works fine for stuff like Hendrix's rythm part's tones on All Along the Watchtower, gives kind of a subtle manual flange effect).
How's the bottom end on Apaches ?
Alternatively you could go for something more Hendrixy with some Irish Tours or Mother's Milks.
I'd think ITs might be a bit too bright on this guitar. The MM are indeed well-placed on my own list.
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Apaches are well balanced lovely warm clean pure Statfullness.
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Hi Fernando - yeps, seems I've read enough of your posts to get a feel about what you would first ask 8)
I can't tell about the pups spacing, I don't have a strat to compare with - but feel free to send one in if you want me to sort this out :mrgreen:
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I would probably stay away from the most midrange heavy pickups, as a maple body tends to have a lot of it already.
Apaches sound like a nice suggestion. Don't know how an Apache bridge pickup would handle the baseplate, but I would be tempted to do that, as the guitar is bright.
Off-topic, but that kind of a headstock now forever reminds me of the Wangcaster :lol: Sorry, I just can't help it.
http://www.carverdoug.com/wang.html (http://www.carverdoug.com/wang.html)
-Zaned
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If it was me, I'd go for a set of base-plated SULTANS'
Why Sultans'? Because I love the Sultans mid/neck I have in my Warmoth strat.
That makes at least a very subjective (hence very good) argument :mrgreen:
:) I like the Sultans' top end a lot more than the Irish Tour - seems a bit sweeter, but no less bright (if that makes any sense). The Sultans don't have quite the aggressive "pop" at the start of the note that ITs have & don't seem to "sizzle" in the same way.
Why base-plated? Because I have non-plated Slowhand mid/neck in one guitar & plated Slowhand neck in another. It's a night and day difference
Care to elaborate ? I did read the FAQ but have no direct experience here.
Also, if I understand correctly, one of the primary reasons for the baseplate is to beef up the bridge a bit so it balances better with the (non-baseplated) middle and neck, so I guess this benefice is lost with baseplates on all three pups ?
Yes, the base plated neck pickup has more power & punch, more low end, generally feels more "lively". Bear in mind that my favourite bridge pickup is the Holy Diver which the unplated Slowhand neck didn't balance particularly well with. In my case beefing up the Slowhand neck was a good thing.
The point I'm trying to make is that I like what the baseplate did for the Slowhand, so I'm guessing that I'd really like what it would do for a Sultans' set as I like the unplated Sultan a lot better than the unplated Slowhand... :)
Yes, putting base plates on the whole set beefs up all 3 pickups, so they will balance with each other in pretty much the same way that the unplated set balances with itself, but my understanding of the calibrated strat sets is that the bridge has a bit extra winding anyway to make the whole set balance (6.4k for a Sultans' bridge versus 5.75k for the mid/neck)
I have no experience of a "proper" strat - all my guitars have bridge humbuckers. In fact, the only strats I've ever owned have been HSS or twin humbucker, so I can't comment on single coil bridges. If I ever buy a strat with the standard SSS pickup config, it wouldn't bother me if the bridge single seemed unbalanced - in fact I'd expect it to. Trying to make it more powerful - either by base plating just the bridge or using something more powerful like a Trilogy - would seem pointless as I already have plenty of guitars with a powerful bridge pickup.
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I would probably stay away from the most midrange heavy pickups, as a maple body tends to have a lot of it already.
Indeed. Now it also have lots of highs too so a (too) scooped pup could easily over-emphasis them... But yes, your point makes sense - and it's easier to filter out hi ends than mids.
Do you think MM would be to middy here ?
Apaches sound like a nice suggestion. Don't know how an Apache bridge pickup would handle the baseplate, but I would be tempted to do that, as the guitar is bright.
Bright with tight lows - so having something to beef up the low end a bit would indeed help IMHO. To be true, the question is not whether to baseplate the bridge or not, but rather whether to baseplate _only_ the bridge - or the whole set !-)
Ok, so this makes one more vote for Apaches.
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:) I like the Sultans' top end a lot more than the Irish Tour - seems a bit sweeter, but no less bright (if that makes any sense). The Sultans don't have quite the aggressive "pop" at the start of the note that ITs have & don't seem to "sizzle" in the same way.
I think I know what you mean by "sweeter but no less bright". wrt/ ITs, I (re)listened at some available samples yesterday night (and stayed awake until 2:30 in the morning - pretty bad idea), and given how this Vox sounds with the rather warm and dark DiMarzio FS-1 it really don't need _more_ sizzle !-)
Thanks for the description of Sultan's BTW. Did you ever had a chance to compare them with Apaches ?
Yes, the base plated neck pickup has more power & punch, more low end, generally feels more "lively". Bear in mind that my favourite bridge pickup is the Holy Diver which the unplated Slowhand neck didn't balance particularly well with. In my case beefing up the Slowhand neck was a good thing.
The point I'm trying to make is that I like what the baseplate did for the Slowhand, so I'm guessing that I'd really like what it would do for a Sultans' set as I like the unplated Sultan a lot better than the unplated Slowhand... :)
Ok, thanks. If I may ask, how is the Sultan's bottom end ? Compared, to, say SH (which some have described as the closest match to FS-1).
Maple bodies are usually described as having very tight and a bit tappered off low ends. I can testify about the "tight" part - it's very obvious on both my Vox - but at least with FS-1, this one still have more low ends than my (alder-body, BGF50s) Tele (comparing both neck pups). Now I don't now if it comes from the guitar itself or from the FS-1 ???
Yes, putting base plates on the whole set beefs up all 3 pickups, (snip) but my understanding of the calibrated strat sets is that the bridge has a bit extra winding anyway to make the whole set balance (6.4k for a Sultans' bridge versus 5.75k for the mid/neck)
AFAICT all BKP bridges have extra winding anyway. While it indeed help balancing with the neck level-wise, it won't be do much for the (relative) extra hi ends and loss of low ends.
I have no experience of a "proper" strat - all my guitars have bridge humbuckers (snip) so I can't comment on single coil bridges. If I ever buy a strat with the standard SSS pickup config, it wouldn't bother me if the bridge single seemed unbalanced - in fact I'd expect it to.
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Well, I don't have much experience with Strats but at least they were all SSS - and the best description I could give of a SC strat bridge is "barely usable". Ok, well, it can get better under heavy overdrive / distortion, and I guess a tone control on the bridge would help too, but believe me it gets _very_ thin and trebly compared with even the mid pup.
Trying to make it more powerful - either by base plating just the bridge or using something more powerful like a Trilogy - would seem pointless as I already have plenty of guitars with a powerful bridge pickup.
Yeps, quite a few strat wiring mods just take this approach of only using the bridge as an "add-on" to other pups - which more or less follows the same logic as not even having a tone pot on the bridge. So yes, perhaps baseplating the whole set and wiring the 5th position for something like a neck+bridge (or mid+bridge) series might be a better move than trying to make the bridge usable "stand-alone".
Anyway... Thanks Antag for your comments, very helpful. May I abuse and ask how you would compare SH with Sultans ?
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Apaches are well balanced lovely warm clean pure Statfullness.
Sounds like you love them quite a bit 8)
Ok, so so far we have:
* Apaches : 3
* Sultans : 1
* MM : 0.5
* IT : -0
* SH : 0
Strange enough, no one mentionned Trilogy or Sinners so far :mrgreen:
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Strange enough, no one mentionned Trilogy or Sinners so far :mrgreen:
Nailbombs
PDT_008
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Strange enough, no one mentionned Trilogy or Sinners so far :mrgreen:
Nailbombs
Interesting idea, but then I'd have to physically split the pups to make'em fit in the single-coil sized pockets - and I'd end up with one useless coil ...
:drink:
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I've been watching this one with interest, but I've been a bit busy over work to be able to waffle...
Now suddenly I'm free for a bit (until my dinner is ready!)
I haven't really got a suggestion, but I do have some input.
Irish Tours
These are the only BKP strat set I have so far.
They've been in a Fiesta Red (I think the colour affects the tone :lol:) CIJ 62 strat where they sounded very nice, or so I thought at the time.
They were a lot clearer than the Texas Specials it came with, but kind of thicker than some of the strat sounds I was reaching for. I enjoyed them very much in there for nearly two years... but then things happened...
I got me a Sunburst Roadworn 60s strat that seemed to be crying out for ITs. I was a little concerned because this strat is LOADS BRIGHTER than the CIJ... but I thought I might as well give it a go.
The Roadworn had Tex Mex pickups which were very expressive but seemed a bit thin.
I swapped the pickups from one guitar to the other...
The Irish Tours, in the brighter guitar, are loads sweeter and more expressive than they were in the CIJ strat. They still do gritty Rory brightness, but now they do sweet as well. I don't see them leaving this guitar ever...
My point, in this case, is don't necessarily write off ITs for a bright guitar... I'm not suggesting them, but they might be a possibility, even though it's a bright guitar...
Apaches
I was considering these for myself.
The Tex Mex pickups, which were thin in the Roadworn, sounded really good in the Fiesta Red CIJ. It was doing some serious Hank Marvin work and southern rock funkiness.
And then the middle pickup died (they sound good, but they look extremely flimsy, fragile, and plastic when you get the scratchplate off :lol:). I suspect I can fix it, but I still had the old Texas Specials, so in they went...
YUK!!! :lol: I've almost got them going ok with height adjustments, but I'm starting to think BKP :roll:
And, of course, Hank... so, er.., Apaches.
I've taken a bit of advice, and the words I'm getting back are "Apaches - lovely rounded strat tones".
That's not what I want from this guitar, alas. I want a bit more lightness and cut.
I bring this up because I've only just realised about the "rounded" bit, and if it's not your cup of tea either... then possibly beware of Apaches? I'm convinced they're stunning, especially if you want a rounded sounding strat tone, but if you want more quack etc... maybe not...
I'm personally dithering between:
a) Mother's Milks - which is what I nearly got instead of ITs in the first place - late 60s, Hendrixy, etc, which would be perfect except I've learnt that my CIJ is very warm/thick sounding anyway...
b) This unadvertised "62 Set" that some people have been going for.
c) Sultans.
The Sultans have been in the lead for a week or two, and Antag's posts have pushed them further ahead (many thanks!).
About thin bridge pickups on strats
I used to think this (bridge on its own unusable), but I don't anymore.
I've always had my strats rewired to master tone (and leave the other tone disconnected - I tried the blend stuff years ago, amongst other things, and didn't like it, didn't seem very stratty to me). But even with a tone on the bridge, I hardly ever used it.
Then when I got the ITs, suddenly I found a bridge that worked, even with the tone full open. It was "wow!" :lol:
I have since discovered that, for me, it's all about pickup height adjustment - in the last year I've fiddled with 4 sets of strat pups on different guitars (including the set I used live for years, ignoring the bridge on its own), and every single set ended up with a usable bridge pickup :roll:
Of course, it is down to amp settings, personal preferences, and all sorts of stuff, but I'm sure that a usable bridge pickup (in comparison to the others in the set) is probably hiding in most sets - especially in a BKP set!
Other Stuff
Er... can't think of any... and the missus says my dinner's ready :lol:
oh yeah - baseplates... not tried them, sounds interesting, but not something that I want to try at the moment... If I was trying to balance a single with a humbucker, I might... but with what I've found over bridge pickups over the last year, I can't see me going for a baseplate anywhere on a SSS strat configuration.
And pickup positions on your guitar - is the second harmonic (equivalent to the 5th fret harmonic) over the neck pickup? If it isn't, the pups aren't in quite the same place as a strat. Try putting the guitar onto neck only and then try to get a 5th fret harmonic - on a strat, very little comes through the amplifier...
... Hope something in that lot helps! :D
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About the Irish tours; they're bright, yes. They also have a good amount of mids, which this guitar probably already has a lot of. About MMs, I don't think they'd be too middy.
I still stand by my recommandation of the Apaches.
-Zaned
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I haven't really got a suggestion, but I do have some input.
"some" ? Now that's an understatement :mrgreen:
Plenty of things to think about here...
Irish Tours
The Irish Tours, in the brighter guitar, are loads sweeter and more expressive than they were in the CIJ strat. They still do gritty Rory brightness, but now they do sweet as well. I don't see them leaving this guitar ever...
My point, in this case, is don't necessarily write off ITs for a bright guitar... I'm not suggesting them, but they might be a possibility, even though it's a bright guitar...
Interesting. I suppose this has to do with the harmonic composition of the guitar's hi ends and whatnot, but it's probably a too complex interaction to be easily understood.
Apaches
I've taken a bit of advice, and the words I'm getting back are "Apaches - lovely rounded strat tones".
I bring this up because I've only just realised about the "rounded" bit
Well, as far as i'm concerned this may be a point in favor of Apaches - specially on this particular guitar !-)
About thin bridge pickups on strats
I used to think this (bridge on its own unusable), but I don't anymore.
(snip)
Then when I got the ITs, suddenly I found a bridge that worked, even with the tone full open. It was "wow!" :lol:
Mmm, I now realize I had kind of the same pattern with my Tele. The stock bridge pup was so shrill and ice-picky it was just unusable without the tone rolled half-way, while the BGF50s bridge JustWork as is (with indeed a great "wow" factor).
I have since discovered that, for me, it's all about pickup height adjustment
Huhu... I'll keep this in mind.
And pickup positions on your guitar - is the second harmonic (equivalent to the 5th fret harmonic) over the neck pickup? If it isn't, the pups aren't in quite the same place as a strat. Try putting the guitar onto neck only and then try to get a 5th fret harmonic - on a strat, very little comes through the amplifier...
Looks like I have the second harmonic just above the "neck-border" of the neck pup (I mean: not above the pup's pole).
... Hope something in that lot helps! :D
It does - even the parts I didn't answer (but have carefully read). Thanks a lot for sharing.
:good: :drink:
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About the Irish tours; they're bright, yes. They also have a good amount of mids, which this guitar probably already has a lot of.
About MMs, I don't think they'd be too middy.
I still stand by my recommandation of the Apaches.
Strong uppermids range, yes, but not overbearing neither. But anyway - the Tele with BGF50s already fullfill my needs for raw gritty SC tones, and the Vox already has way enough grit by itself to not need more IMHO (I'd still like to hear what this combo would like but, hey, I just can't afford a full BKP set only to satisfy my curiosity :?)
Thanks for your inputs, Zaned.
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Strange enough, no one mentionned Trilogy or Sinners so far :mrgreen:
Nailbombs
FWIW, I was only half joking. I didn't really considered going contemporary / hi-gain on this guitar, but didn't rule the option out neither, so any input on what kind of results I could get from Trilogy or Sinners on this guitar is welcome 8)
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Irish Tours
The Irish Tours, in the brighter guitar, are loads sweeter and more expressive than they were in the CIJ strat. They still do gritty Rory brightness, but now they do sweet as well. I don't see them leaving this guitar ever...
My point, in this case, is don't necessarily write off ITs for a bright guitar... I'm not suggesting them, but they might be a possibility, even though it's a bright guitar...
Interesting. I suppose this has to do with the harmonic composition of the guitar's hi ends and whatnot, but it's probably a too complex interaction to be easily understood.
That's exactly what I thought :lol:
And it's why I won't go "Irish Tours, that's what you need..."
If you had a set to hand, like I did, I'd go "bang 'em in, it might be a marriage made in heaven..." (but you'd have already tried it anyway! :lol:)
Apaches
I've taken a bit of advice, and the words I'm getting back are "Apaches - lovely rounded strat tones".
I bring this up because I've only just realised about the "rounded" bit
Well, as far as i'm concerned this may be a point in favor of Apaches - specially on this particular guitar !-)
And with that, even though I've not tried them personally, I believe my recommendation for this guitar is ....
Apaches!! :D
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Irish Tours
The Irish Tours, in the brighter guitar, are loads sweeter and more expressive than they were in the CIJ strat. They still do gritty Rory brightness, but now they do sweet as well.
Interesting. I suppose this has to do with the harmonic composition of the guitar's hi ends and whatnot, but it's probably a too complex interaction to be easily understood.
That's exactly what I thought :lol:
And it's why I won't go "Irish Tours, that's what you need..."
If you had a set to hand, like I did, I'd go "bang 'em in, it might be a marriage made in heaven..." (but you'd have already tried it anyway! :lol:)
Duh... Too bad there are so few BKP users in my neighbourood :( Don't even have a chance to try out a BKP set on someone else's axe.
Apaches
I've taken a bit of advice, and the words I'm getting back are "Apaches - lovely rounded strat tones".
I bring this up because I've only just realised about the "rounded" bit
Well, as far as i'm concerned this may be a point in favor of Apaches - specially on this particular guitar !-)
And with that, even though I've not tried them personally, I believe my recommendation for this guitar is ....
Apaches!! :D
So this makes one more vote for the little indians.
* Apaches : 4
* Sultans : 1 => Antag, anything to say ? Or anyone else on the difference between Apaches and Sultans ?
* MM : 0.5 => any comment welcome
* IT : -0 => odds are they won't fit this guitar BUT...
* SH : 0 => any comment welcome
And still no one about Trilogy or Sinners... Does anyone use'em ? :wink:
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Well, I've just pulled the trigger on Sultans, vintage stagger, stock middle. They're a birthday pressie from the missus, so I won't be able to comment on them until March (and they're going in a warmish strat with alder body and rosewood board, so not entirely relevant to your situation...)
BUT, I did a lot of research on here yesterday, searching old posts etc.
I still suspect the Apaches are your best bet.
I now understand why the ITs work better, for me, in my bright sounding Roadworn. They were designed to be "thicker" than the vintage range and give slightly more punch. I found several posts from Tim (did a search in Pickups for "Sultans") which gave me this info. He explained that he'd designed them to give a "standard player" a pickup that would approach the Rory Gallagher and SRV type tones. Those guys achieved these tones with lower powered pickups, but with heavier strings than average and with potentially very aggressive left/right hand techniques - you've got to work hard with your fingers to get those tones. The ITs are designed to get a player with a lighter touch into that ballpark without changing your style.
Aha! :lol:
I already have that aggressive left/right hand technique - just ask my fretboards - I've been trying to sound like Rory since 1980, and I was already a bit heavy-handed on an accoustic at that stage. And I use heavier strings than Rory did.
So in my warmer CIJ, I suspect that my standard mode of playing made the IT tone even thicker... Sometimes I was struggling to get enough top-end out of them(!).
In my brighter/thinner/harder Roadworn, the ITs, the guitar, and my playing, all complement/compensate each other to give me a slightly hotter than vintage pure woody strat tone... (by the way, this has put a temptation to try to improve the tone with a steel block right out of the window!! :lol:).
On the Sultans, the impression I have come away with (and there are some fairly conflicting views expressed on here over the years :lol:) is that they are possibly slightly smoother than the Apaches, and that they are slightly brighter by adding top end rather than losing anything else. The extra brightness is sometimes described as sweeter than the ITs brightness.
I found something new about Apaches that I didn't know: they are apparently "hotter" than the "average 50s pickup" was - they're like the odd set that would crop up with a few more windings and sound utterly fab... And this means they can snarl as well as do the other stuff you'd expect from a 50s strat pickup.
I was already aware of this one: Unless it's changed, and I doubt it, the Apaches are also apparently Tim's favourite strat pickup (I even read that he's rumoured to have used them in Ozzy tribute band).
Anyway, I finally went for Sultans on the CIJ because:
a) Apaches, I believe, will be more rounded than I want (at the moment) given my technique
b) Mother's Milks, although I would love to get a set, and would sound fabulous, would make the CIJ sound a little bit close to the IT'd Roadworn
c) I'm not after an "allround" strat at the moment - for me, that's my Roadworn - I want the CIJ to do a completely different job, a "classy", clean, percussive strat tone, with good bottom and detailed mids, probably to be used without a pick much of the time... kinda fits the Sultans descriptions a bit too close for comfort if I'm ruling out the Apaches :lol:
I'll post a thread when they're in...
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Well, I've just pulled the trigger on Sultans, vintage stagger, stock middle. They're a birthday pressie from the missus, so I won't be able to comment on them until March (and they're going in a warmish strat with alder body and rosewood board, so not entirely relevant to your situation...)
I'll be interested to know how those turn out. I've had vague ides of getting a set of Sultans for my Robert Cray Strat, just to have something really clean, old-fashioned and "pure" sounding. Maybe with a baseplate on the bridge for a hint of Tele.
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Well, I've just pulled the trigger on Sultans, vintage stagger, stock middle. They're a birthday pressie from the missus, so I won't be able to comment on them until March (and they're going in a warmish strat with alder body and rosewood board, so not entirely relevant to your situation...)
I'll be interested to know how those turn out. I've had vague ides of getting a set of Sultans for my Robert Cray Strat, just to have something really clean, old-fashioned and "pure" sounding. Maybe with a baseplate on the bridge for a hint of Tele.
Yeah, that's why I'm going for them, slightly different references, but Robert Cray will do.
I came so close to contacting Tim this time. But the emails I tried to write were several pages long, and I believe my own answer to them would have been "Apaches" anyway :lol:
Then after all the reading yesterday, and sleeping on it, I realised the big decider was that I want the CIJ to be noticably different from the Roadworn - and I want an almost "clinical" strat sound to let the fingers through (think Mr Cray and Mr Knopfler, I spose). And if I added that to my possible email, the would probably be Apaches will do it, but Sultans will as well...
So I just ordered :D
(By the way, I found a lot of posts from you in various threads, bemoaning the lack of love for Sultans :lol: - this could well be the start of the Sultans "love in". Assuming I like them, that'll be me, Antag, and PhilKing quietly loving them...)
BigB - I still reckon Apaches is what you want, even after all my searching - but I would recommend doing a bit of a search yourself if you've got time, there's some VERY interesting and useful stuff on here.
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(By the way, I found a lot of posts from you in various threads, bemoaning the lack of love for Sultans :lol: - this could well be the start of the Sultans "love in". Assuming I like them, that'll be me, Antag, and PhilKing quietly loving them...)
Yeah, I keep plugging away on the Strat and Tele threads, hoping someone will pipe up about the more obscure models. Why risk big bucks on an "experiment" when someone else can do it for you? :wink:
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* Sultans : 1 => Antag, anything to say ? Or anyone else on the difference between Apaches and Sultans ?
And still no one about Trilogy or Sinners... Does anyone use'em ? :wink:
Nope, never tried or even heard Apaches & as I posted earlier, I'm not really a strat afficionado :lol:
FWIW, I have a Trilogy neck in one of my Charvels. IMHO it's a better match for my favourite Holy Diver bridge than the Irish Tours in the stock HD HSS set. Just about the perfect single coil to match with a thick, powerful bridge pickup. At some point I will swap out the unplated Slowhand mid/neck from my Jackson for Trilogies but it's some way down my list of priorities...
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Well, I've just pulled the trigger on Sultans, vintage stagger, stock middle. They're a birthday pressie from the missus, so I won't be able to comment on them until March (and they're going in a warmish strat with alder body and rosewood board, so not entirely relevant to your situation...)
I'll be interested to know how those turn out. I've had vague ides of getting a set of Sultans for my Robert Cray Strat, just to have something really clean, old-fashioned and "pure" sounding. Maybe with a baseplate on the bridge for a hint of Tele.
Yeah, me too. I'd love to hear how a "proper" strat player finds them. As I said at the top of the thread, if I ever bought a "real" strat, Sultan's' would be my first choice simply because of how much I love the neck...
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(By the way, I found a lot of posts from you in various threads, bemoaning the lack of love for Sultans :lol: - this could well be the start of the Sultans "love in". Assuming I like them, that'll be me, Antag, and PhilKing quietly loving them...)
Yeah, I keep plugging away on the Strat and Tele threads, hoping someone will pipe up about the more obscure models. Why risk big bucks on an "experiment" when someone else can do it for you? :wink:
There weren't quite as many Philly posts about "no Sultan love" as there were 38th Beatle posts about Apaches :lol:
Actually, there seem to be a fair number of "my ITs can do that" posts from me! :lol:
Well, I've just pulled the trigger on Sultans, vintage stagger, stock middle. They're a birthday pressie from the missus, so I won't be able to comment on them until March (and they're going in a warmish strat with alder body and rosewood board, so not entirely relevant to your situation...)
I'll be interested to know how those turn out. I've had vague ides of getting a set of Sultans for my Robert Cray Strat, just to have something really clean, old-fashioned and "pure" sounding. Maybe with a baseplate on the bridge for a hint of Tele.
Yeah, me too. I'd love to hear how a "proper" strat player finds them. As I said at the top of the thread, if I ever bought a "real" strat, Sultan's' would be my first choice simply because of how much I love the neck...
It was actually your comments spread around the place that went some way towards me considering them (no pressure :lol:) so many thanks there :D
Then, somewhere I found the thread where we were all waffling at someone else, and in the middle of it PhilKing installed them in an HSS strat. He came back with an understated "WOW!" sort of post after he'd done it - that almost decided me on the spot.
When I woke up this morning I knew I was going for them anyway, so I put the order in...
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I really don't know what you mean Andy.
Actually, it is strange that you have ordered a set of Sultans at the same time that I have though in my case they are for a friend of mine for his Strat and the choice was arrived at by my knowing his tastes and seeking the advice of Tim. I am really looking forward to hearing my friend's views as he is not a huge Strat fan.
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Just to keep you reassured, they are still my favourite set (though the new 69's are a close second!). I'm going to be pulling out a lot of things to play over the next few weeks, just becasue I want to reorganize my stuff. I have the 1953 Les Paul conversion with Black Dogs out the other day and was really loving that too. The reason I like the Sultans is that they have all the classic rock strat tones in them when cranked, but have a great tone when you take away the gain for a clean blues sound. In fact they are very addicting to play through a Fender amp with no distortion. I know mine have the Stormy Monday in the bridge, so I can't really say what a full set would sound like, but I think that given the sounds you are after, you will be playing this guitar the most!
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BigB
You might want to consider Sultans... I got mine in and rocking, and they are sweet.
In my experience, I'd say they are to ITs what what Yardbirds are to Blackguard Flat50s in my teles.
Here's my essay on yesterday's first impressions http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20377.0 (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20377.0)
Bear in mind it seems to be quite a warm guitar anyway, and it's a rosewood board, and I haven't heard Apaches in the flesh, but Sultans are giving me generic "classic" strat in spades :D
The top end is fabulous. Where the ITs and BGs have got an extra bite like a slightly ragged-edged pirate's cutlass, great for harder blues-rock but not so easy to tame or get polite with, the Sultans and Yardbirds have this deceptively smooth edge to them that will cut just as easily but allow you to appear more civilised while you're doing it :lol:
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Hi AndyR
Thanks for the report - and glad to learn you're happy with your new pups :D
FWIW the Vox is just back from the luthier - gave the poor guy some hard time, but it makes quite a difference in the end, it's now a pleasure to play, the trem is way smoother and the tuning is almost stable - well, as much as it can be with a vintage strat trem system :mrgreen:
Back on topic - you describe the Sultans as smoother than the BG (to compare with pups I know), but do they sound as open and airy ? I just played the Vox for about an hour, loosely jamming along old ZZ Top, Rolling Stones and Patti Smith stuff, and while I enjoy it's playability, I felt something missing - then switched to the Tele for a last track and bang, instant magic, despite the slightly rusty strings and the somehow hazardous intonation. Not that the Vox pups are bad by themselves, they even do have something, but they really lack that lively mojo vibe :-/ So when I read "smoother" (which by itself might be something I'd be interested in) and "more polite", I fear the Sultans would be too smooth and polite for my liking...
But anyway - I'll read a bit more about the Sultans :wink:
Thanks for sharing.
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"Smoothness" - I think a lot of it is to do with the guitar itself. (And also what we mean by "smooth"!)
I might be wrong here, but I chose Sultans instead of Apaches because I reckoned Apaches might just be too "rounded" for this particular guitar.
I'm absolutely loving this guitar now - so much so that I've suddenly noticed it needs a fret dress :lol:
I know what you mean about the mojo vibe. This has it now, but it's a slightly different vibe than the others. Actually, a completely different vibe.
I've spent years pushing my strats to sound like Rory Gallagher's, and the IT'd Roadworn is probably the closest I've come to it. But that's quite a hard sound, very expressive, but there are things I can't really do "properly" with it.
I was aiming at, for the CIJ, a different vibe altogether. And when I was playing last night, I realised I've managed it. Nothing else I have sounds quite so "stratty" as this one does now. I could play my IT'd Roadworn and my BG'd tele, and I'd know the difference, but if I recorded one and told you it was the other, you wouldn't be able to contradict me with any certainty... with this guitar, there's no way another guitarist could mistake it for anything other than a strat.
I have to admit, if I was jamming along to ZZ Top or the Stones, I'd be reaching for a tele (or maybe a humbucker), not a strat... but if it had to be a strat, it would be the IT'd Roadworn.
If I was jamming along to Dire Straits, it would still probably be the Roadworn, funnily enough.
If it was The Shadows, it would be the Sultan'd CIJ.
BUT! I'd also reach for the CIJ to jam with: Lynyrd Skynyrd, Robin Trower, Judas Priest, Ritchie Blackmore, SRV.
The Sultans in the CIJ have clarity and bite, but a bottom end and mids structure that fits better with those. The sound is definitely "open" to my ears, but I'm not sure I personally would describe it as "airy" (except for the 2 & 4 positions, which are increasingly sublime :D). It has a weight to it that is particularly satisfying when playing clean with a bit of wang-bar (think "Lenny" by SRV - absoulutely nails that sound, even without any reverb or effects), but that weight doesn't muddy up when you go into overdrive.
I've not tried any recordings yet, but I have a feeling that this one could "fill a mix" with one guitar part, but it will also be able to cut through a bunch of other guitars and keyboards, still bringing its tone with it - I think it's sounding that good now.
In comparison, the IT'd Roadworn will do a "one guitar" job, but it will be a sparser mix, like Rory Gallagher's earlier albums. When it has to cut through a lot of other instruments, it either has to dominate the whole thing or lose some of its character to sit nicely in the mix.
I'm lucky to have two guitars to do these jobs - I think I've finally understood that I can't get one guitar to do both :lol:
I still don't know where the Apaches or Mothers Milks stand in this scheme of things though. I'm guessing that the Apaches are similar to what I'm getting, and the MMs are brighter.
It's gonna be a tough call, but at the moment I still think that Apaches would be your best/safest bet. It is definitely worth finding out all you can about the Sultans though :D