Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: herbychimp on January 20, 2013, 05:43:51 PM
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I was prompted to add this by a recent article / poll in Guitar world (Never my favourite mag) essentially it was a guitarist tournament where a hundred or so (predominantly rock / blues) players were compared against one another in a kind of abilities match-up / face-off. Of course EVH came out on top (Only US readers could contribute) but some of the parings where ridiculous and the playing field was hardly level. Anyhow, the whole thing got me thinking about a) how many excellent players there are out there that I have managed to miss b) How many of those stellar reputations are really justified. I should pre-empt this by saying that I felt it would be cool for people to air their subjective and educated views without resorting to the kind of dull-witted banter posted on the GW blog.
For my two-peneth I have always been a little confused by the accolades given to Kirk Hammet. A couple of cuts from the 'Metallica' album aside I just struggle to enjoy his tone and find his solos lack originality. However most of my guitar playing friends and non-musican rock lovers really dig his work.
On the other side of the coin I recently discovered Chris Poland. Whilst I am not a huge fan of either the thrash or fusion genre I really find his phrasing original and melodic whilst his playing is pretty damm tight. I don't think that he featured in the poll though.
Certainly circumstance (and massive record sales) plays a part in fame but this whole 'poll' thing just got me thinking .... Anybody care to share their thoughts?
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The folks on the Seymour Duncan forum seem to have a particular dislike of Kirk Hammet. Never listened to Metallica much so I wouldn't know. EVH is an accomplished player but I struggle to find a VH song that I find listenable. I'm not a great fan of face melting speed, it gets very tired very quickly. I still prefer to listen to blues based stuff so I always come back to Rory Gallagher and Johnny Winter. There are thousands of great guitarists that we'll probably never get to hear. I'm not one of them but I keep trying.
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A lot of people seem to adore EVH. About Kirk Hammett - I think he's a good player with nice solos, who has been lifted on the guitar olymp by too many obsessive Metallica fans. It's not his fault.
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A lot of people seem to adore EVH. About Kirk Hammett - I think he's a good player with nice solos, who has been lifted on the guitar olymp by too many obsessive Metallica fans. It's not his fault.
I also wonder whether Kirk Hammett gets more stick than he deserves because it's common knowledge that he took lessons from Joe Satriani. If you're judging Hammett by the same standard as Steve Vai, Alex Skolnick, Larry Lalonde or Charlie Hunter, he starts to seem a bit sub-par; but of course all that really matters is how he fits into the music his band plays.
As far as under-rated guitar players go, Chris Poland is a great shout. Off the top of my head, I'd say Randy California (Spirit), Massimo Morante (Goblin) and Michael Rother (Neu!) should all get more recognition. Vini Reilly (the Durutti Column) and Robin Guthrie (Cocteau Twins) are also huge personal favourites who never seem to be acknowledged for their influence and ability.
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I'm not really into the whole "league table" approach to assessing guitar players, and I always think it's tough to say anyone is "better" than anyone else, it's art not a sport...
That said, I do agree with the comments about Kirk Hammett, I've never found anything about his playing particularly inspiring. Maybe something to do with the fact that, unlike many rock/metal guitarists, he's not really one of the main creative forces in the band? I have to say also that I've become pretty disenchanted with Metallica in recent years so maybe that's turned me against Hammett a bit.
On the other hand, there seems to be a whole school of "Kirk-haters" and he doesn't deserve that either - he gets singled out for criticism which loads of no-better-or-worse players ever receive.
Good call on Chris Poland, I've always been a fan, he very much has his own style. Much preferable to Chris Broderick!
I always go back to the '70s players I first got into when I was a teenager, maybe it's nonsense but to me they seem to be more unique than the majority of post-EVH guitarists. Rick Derringer, Ronnie Montrose, Frank Marino, Robin Trower, Martin Barre, Randy California (already mentioned), Leslie West, Kerry Livgren, the guys in Wishbone Ash. They're my heroes and always will be.
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Glad that Trower, West and Montrose (RIP) got a mention. I recently heard a Planet Rock interview with Mick Jones who was recalling his time spent with Mr West. He sounded like a real character and what an unbelievable p90 tone. Another chap who I always felt deserves a bit more credit was Elliot Easton of the Cars. Always restrained by the pop format but some juicy south-paw melodies there I think
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I never got why there is so much hate for Kirk. People say he's overrated and cr@ppy, but who ever said he was the best guitarist ever? I certainly have never heard anyone say that, so it's hard to call someone overrated that was never rated too highly in the first place. Yes he does use his wah a bit too much, but I feel like the hate he's gotten is a product of the band he's in. Metallica is arguably the biggest metal band ever, so people automatically put 2 and 2 together and think Hammett= best guitarist, which he obviously isn't.
Enough about that though! I know the guys I'm about to list here are from well-known bands but I don't feel they get nearly enough credit. First, there's my favorite guitarist, Alex Lifeson. Geddy and Neil get alot of credit and for good reason, but Alex doesn't get nearly enough respect for what he does IMO. Another great that gets overlooked often is Mick Jones of Foreigner. He's always had stellar tone and his playing is great, but I guess because people look at Foreigner as one of those "sellout" bands he doesn't get the credit I think he deserves. Not to mention the fact he wrote the majority of their extremely catchy and fun tunes. Mick Mars from Crue and CC Deville also deserve mention, and Mick has my favorite tone EVER and he's always been able to keep his bluesy roots on display.
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I think kirk hammet is an extremely over-rated player, he often plays the wrong modes and creates some really bad sounding dissonances, there are times when I want to throw paper aeroplanes at him with the hope that he will read the message 'play dorian mode NOW' he needs something just to remind him.
Next time I see metallica that's what I'm going to do...throw a paper aeroplane at him
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In terms of unsung players I've always thought that Wilko Johnson has never really got his due. Instantly recognisable, totally cool, very much his own player and played on some great records. Another person who i never felt got enough credit (perhaps until recently) as a guitar player is George Harrison. Again, you always know it's him and there are so many Beatles guitar breaks that you can instantly recall that he must have been doing something right. He also played on a few decent records, so I'm told.
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how about Brad Whitford?
as far as i can tell he's always been pretty much an equal partner guitar wise in Aerosmith, yet Joe Perry gets all the plaudits. personally, i have no idea what parts Joe or Brad played on any given song, but it's as likely to have been either of them. by all accounts he's actually a more technically skilled player than Perry.
Speaking of Brad, has anyone ever had any experience of one of his three monkeys (i think) amps?
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how about Brad Whitford?
as far as i can tell he's always been pretty much an equal partner guitar wise in Aerosmith, yet Joe Perry gets all the plaudits. personally, i have no idea what parts Joe or Brad played on any given song, but it's as likely to have been either of them. by all accounts he's actually a more technically skilled player than Perry.
Speaking of Brad, has anyone ever had any experience of one of his three monkeys (i think) amps?
Exactly this. It's only that Joe Perry gets all the solos... But I wouldn't be surprised if brad had far more influence on the songwriting process.
That said, I do love Joe Perry's solos. Incredible tone and feel.
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^
I remember hearing the Whitford St Holmes album many years ago. That must have featured Brad as main guitarist, although Derek St Holmes - great singer - played guitar too, I think, just to confuse things. Unfortunately I can't for the life of me remember what it sounded like. :lol:
I've always assumed that Whitford is a technically able, versatile player but perhaps rather anonymous in his style. I've never seen Aerosmith live but in all the live clips and promo videos I've seen it does seem to be Perry who invariably gets the "big" memorable parts.
Regarding the songwriting, when you look at the credits on the classic albums Steven Tyler - for all that he's a bit of a dick - seems to have been by far the main creative force in the band.
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how about Brad Whitford?
as far as i can tell he's always been pretty much an equal partner guitar wise in Aerosmith, yet Joe Perry gets all the plaudits. personally, i have no idea what parts Joe or Brad played on any given song, but it's as likely to have been either of them. by all accounts he's actually a more technically skilled player than Perry.
Speaking of Brad, has anyone ever had any experience of one of his three monkeys (i think) amps?
Exactly this. It's only that Joe Perry gets all the solos... But I wouldn't be surprised if brad had far more influence on the songwriting process.
That said, I do love Joe Perry's solos. Incredible tone and feel.
Now hold on a second!!!
My two favorite Aero solos and probably up there on my all-time list are Last Child and Nobody's Fault (also my favorite Aero song and in my top 10 favorite songs from any group) both done by Mr. Whitford. I find Perry's solos are much more about energy that feel, and Brad is the opposite. I also like Brad's rhythm playing more than Joe's, Joe is much too sloppy for me. Brad is in the pocket and plays what needs to be played. I feel ashamed I left him off my list.
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Chris Haskett
&
Gary Miller aka Dr Know
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I'm not really into the whole "league table" approach to assessing guitar players, and I always think it's tough to say anyone is "better" than anyone else, it's art not a sport...
Didnt even bother to read the rest of what you said.
End $%&#ing thread.
I'm a poet and lists are shite.
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Despite saying that, I still managed to write a load more shite, unfortunately.... :oops:
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Per Nilsson is amazing!!! He deserves more recognition but generally speaking and as stated by others these kind of polls are based off social proof than any measure of talent or ability, nor can I ever see that changing
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I've never understood the reverence of Randy Rhoads. Best thing he ever did was design a cool guitar.
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I've never understood the reverence of Randy Rhoads. Best thing he ever did was design a cool guitar.
i've never really gotten that either. he was a good player, but i don't hear anything really special. and i personally think his guitar sound was awful. It's perhaps a story of wasted potential, he might have been something special but for his tragic, and very stupid, end.
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As far as unsung goes, you rarely hear people talking about James Dean Bradfield from MSP - thats guy is a really tasty player.
I don't get the Hammett bashing either, go back and listen to the first four albums - he has a style, you know its him when he plays. He does have a bit of a shakey vibrato though and his tone could be better. Still legendary.
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I've never understood the reverence of Randy Rhoads. Best thing he ever did was design a cool guitar.
i've never really gotten that either. he was a good player, but i don't hear anything really special. and i personally think his guitar sound was awful. It's perhaps a story of wasted potential, he might have been something special but for his tragic, and very stupid, end.
I think he was different, but not different enough to warrant all the accolades that came after his death. His studio tone was absolutely terrible, but his live sound was much better IMO. But yes, I do think he's a bit overrated. Aren't basically all the musicians who passed early guilty of that as well though?
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often that's true, there are musicians who would have been pretty much forgotten if they hadn't died young. I'm amazed at the instant reverence for Amy Winehouse! and let's be honest, Jim Morrison was a dick. But then there's Hendrix :) i'm sure there are some who would call him overrated, but not too many.
i do wonder if Janis Joplin and Nick Drake would have gotten the respect they have if they'd lived. i think they're both fantastic, by the way
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I don't get the adulation for Morrison. He's not a great singer, and he always seems absolutely smashed in every video I see of them.
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The first two Doors albums are great. They kind of invented the whole dark lyric downer band thing. There was nobody like them around at that time of peace and love. Then the guy died young. Talented or not, he made more of a mark than a lot of 'stars'.
(and he had a great band behind him)
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The first two Doors albums are great. They kind of invented the whole dark lyric downer band thing. There was nobody like them around at that time of peace and love. Then the guy died young. Talented or not, he made more of a mark than a lot of 'stars'.
(and he had a great band behind him)
They made (some) great songs.
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There are some great songs and I like the general sound/vibe on Doors recordings. But I must be honest, I've always struggled to enjoy most of their music.
On the "musicians remembered because they died young" theme, does anyone think Kurt Cobain was overrated? I certainly don't, I think Nirvana were absolutely phenomenal - despite the fact they killed the hair metal bands I liked at the time! :lol: I do suspect they'd peaked, though - not at all sure Kurt would still be doing anything interesting now.
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There are some great songs and I like the general sound/vibe on Doors recordings. But I must be honest, I've always struggled to enjoy most of their music.
On the "musicians remembered because they died young" theme, does anyone think Kurt Cobain was overrated? I certainly don't, I think Nirvana were absolutely phenomenal - despite the fact they killed the hair metal bands I liked at the time! :lol: I do suspect they'd peaked, though - not at all sure Kurt would still be doing anything interesting now.
Of course, they peaked at Nevermind. Hard to not peak with an album like that, do you see them ever coming out with an album ever better than that?
As far as Cobain, I think he definitely had a unique style, and a unique voice. I don't get people calling his voice "heavenly" or "beautiful", as I find it's more like nails on a chalkboard, in a somewhat good way though. He certainly falls under the category you just named though.
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We used to play some Doors stuff in the blues band I played years ago (which they probably covered from the old blues guys - such as Roadhouse).
As regards Nirvana I could never relate to them.
Cheers Stephan
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i actually quite like the Doors myself, just have never understood the Cult Of Jim. I think Cobain was actually improving. Nevermind is great, but I think In Utero is actually far superior.
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I've never understood the reverence of Randy Rhoads. Best thing he ever did was design a cool guitar.
i've never really gotten that either. he was a good player, but i don't hear anything really special. and i personally think his guitar sound was awful. It's perhaps a story of wasted potential, he might have been something special but for his tragic, and very stupid, end.
how could you say this and then praise nirvana? he was better than a 'good player' sorry but I can't agree with what you are saying, without him ozzy osbourne wouldn't be the rich and famous man that he is today
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I have to agree with that. Randy Rhoads set the standard for all Ozzy guitarists to come, be it Jake, Zakk or whoever. As regards his sound, I only know the Tribute album, and I love his live solo tone.
Cheers Stephan
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I've never understood the reverence of Randy Rhoads. Best thing he ever did was design a cool guitar.
i've never really gotten that either. he was a good player, but i don't hear anything really special. and i personally think his guitar sound was awful. It's perhaps a story of wasted potential, he might have been something special but for his tragic, and very stupid, end.
how could you say this and then praise nirvana? he was better than a 'good player' sorry but I can't agree with what you are saying, without him ozzy osbourne wouldn't be the rich and famous man that he is today
I don't know about that, I think that if his solo work failed he would have gone running back to Sabbath after Dio left.
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I thought Randy Rhoads was excellent and would've probably gone on to greater things.
But I don't think Ozzy Osbourne being rich and famous has much to do with his music. His solo albums are all pretty mediocre with a few good songs (to be fair the early albums are way better than the recent ones!)
Ozzy is rich and famous because:
- He was in Black Sabbath, which created enough interest to get his solo career off the ground in the first place;
- He is, in various ways, a very amusing and entertaining character, which endeared him to the general public - once he was drawn to their attention (see below!);
- The Osbournes turned him from a cult rock star to a genuine media personality, like it or not;
- His career has been very, very skilfully managed (and stage-managed) by his wife!
(For what it's worth, my favourite Ozzy guitarist is Jake E Lee, although I don't think the two albums he played on were anything special. My favourite Ozzy album is Talk of the Devil, with Brad Gillis in awesome form on all those Sabbath classics!)
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I've never understood the reverence of Randy Rhoads. Best thing he ever did was design a cool guitar.
i've never really gotten that either. he was a good player, but i don't hear anything really special. and i personally think his guitar sound was awful. It's perhaps a story of wasted potential, he might have been something special but for his tragic, and very stupid, end.
how could you say this and then praise nirvana? he was better than a 'good player' sorry but I can't agree with what you are saying, without him ozzy osbourne wouldn't be the rich and famous man that he is today
I don't know about that, I think that if his solo work failed he would have gone running back to Sabbath after Dio left.
Fully agree with that but his band was simply too good.
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I thought Randy Rhoads was excellent and would've probably gone on to greater things.
But I don't think Ozzy Osbourne being rich and famous has much to do with his music. His solo albums are all pretty mediocre with a few good songs (to be fair the early albums are way better than the recent ones!)
Ozzy is rich and famous because:
- He was in Black Sabbath, which created enough interest to get his solo career off the ground in the first place;
- He is, in various ways, a very amusing and entertaining character, which endeared him to the general public - once he was drawn to their attention (see below!);
- The Osbournes turned him from a cult rock star to a genuine media personality, like it or not;
- His career has been very, very skilfully managed (and stage-managed) by his wife!
I also agree with that - they found out the importance of proper marketing earlier than others.
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I've never understood the reverence of Randy Rhoads. Best thing he ever did was design a cool guitar.
i've never really gotten that either. he was a good player, but i don't hear anything really special. and i personally think his guitar sound was awful. It's perhaps a story of wasted potential, he might have been something special but for his tragic, and very stupid, end.
how could you say this and then praise nirvana? he was better than a 'good player' sorry but I can't agree with what you are saying, without him ozzy osbourne wouldn't be the rich and famous man that he is today
no offence intended. i think it's the adulation he gets from a lot of people that i don't understand, rather than the man himself. and yes, "good player" maybe does sound a bit dismissive. clearly he was a much more than average player. unfortunately, i think his death possibly contributed at least as much to Ozzy's fame and fortune as his playing. it would have been great to hear what he would have done free of the restrictions of playing in Ozzy's band.
as to Nirvana, it's not really a fair comparison. no one is going to call Kurt Cobain a guitar virtuoso.
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Maybe Randy Rhoads was a virtuoso (I don't have an opinion) and certainly Kurt Cobain wasn't. Kurt would never have got a gig with Ozzy but what would Nevermind have sounded like with Randy playing lead on those songs ?
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as to Nirvana, it's not really a fair comparison. no one is going to call Kurt Cobain a guitar virtuoso.
To complain that he is not a guitar virtuoso is completely missing the point of why nirvana were a breath of fresh air.
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Maybe Randy Rhoads was a virtuoso (I don't have an opinion) and certainly Kurt Cobain wasn't. Kurt would never have got a gig with Ozzy but what would Nevermind have sounded like with Randy playing lead on those songs ?
What lead?
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as to Nirvana, it's not really a fair comparison. no one is going to call Kurt Cobain a guitar virtuoso.
To complain that he is not a guitar virtuoso is completely missing the point of why nirvana were a breath of fresh air.
? i made no complaint. i said it was an unfair comparison, it's a totally different kind of music. if you look at what i said earlier you'll see that i praised Nirvana, and consider In Utero to be a wonderful album.
we all have our opinions about musicians and music, i would hope there's no need for any of us to argue about them
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as to Nirvana, it's not really a fair comparison. no one is going to call Kurt Cobain a guitar virtuoso.
To complain that he is not a guitar virtuoso is completely missing the point of why nirvana were a breath of fresh air.
? i made no complaint. i said it was an unfair comparison, it's a totally different kind of music. if you look at what i said earlier you'll see that i praised Nirvana, and consider In Utero to be a wonderful album.
we all have our opinions about musicians and music, i would hope there's no need for any of us to argue about them
I didn't say you did complain.... That wasn't directed at you in that way. If you read it, it was backing up your statement. I should have added "agreed" at the start and "would be" instead of "is". Lol. My bad there. I also agree that In Utero is an awesome album.
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ah, no problem :) i get you now
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as to Nirvana, it's not really a fair comparison. no one is going to call Kurt Cobain a guitar virtuoso.
To complain that he is not a guitar virtuoso is completely missing the point of why nirvana were a breath of fresh air.
I can certainly understand why there had to be a band like Nirvana. The 80s glam and hair metal thing was getting out of hand and boring. All record labels wanted the 25th version of VH and then the 37th version of GnR. There had to be someone different. And then ... the record labels wanted the xxth version of that.
Isn't it funny that they all claimed to promote individuality and originality at that time?
Cheers Stephan
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as to Nirvana, it's not really a fair comparison. no one is going to call Kurt Cobain a guitar virtuoso.
To complain that he is not a guitar virtuoso is completely missing the point of why nirvana were a breath of fresh air.
I can certainly understand why there had to be a band like Nirvana. The 80s glam and hair metal thing was getting out of hand and boring. All record labels wanted the 25th version of VH and then the 37th version of GnR. There had to be someone different. And then ... the record labels wanted the xxth version of that.
Isn't it funny that they all claimed to promote individuality and originality at that time?
It was a remarkable time though. I don't think anyone could have foreseen what happened - not so much that Nirvana were successful, but that it had such a dramatic effect on the existing rock music scene, literally killing dozens of bands' careers overnight (or so it seemed).
Of course bands like Mother Love Bone and Soundgarden already existed, but I don't know if they'd have ever broken through in such a big way, without Nirvana.
I loved a lot of the glam metal bands, so it was a time of mixed emotions, but it was really exciting to watch it all changing. Of course we then had that weird period where bands dumped their spandex and Ibanez in favour of plaid shirts and Jazzmasters, which was utterly ludicrous.
Then Nu Metal came along and we had ten years of downtuned metal albums with no guitar solos. That was really boring.
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^^^quite depressing too^^^
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Ill say that Dave Mustaine and Chuck Schuldiner are my favorite guitarists, Mikael Akerfeldt and John Petrucci are up there too.
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Some interesting ideas coming out here. I have already investigated two players that I had never come across before. Actually, not wishing to be controversial, but I really missed the boat as far as George Lynch was concerned. I bought the 1st Lynch mob CD back in the day and liked the tone / vibe. Clearly he is a master of the fretboard and has a very identifiable sound and phrasing.. that said, I remember reading an old Guitarist interview with Jakey Lou who made some disparaging remarks about Lynch's rhythm playing (or rather it's lack of invention) can anybody point me in the direction of some essential Lynch listening?
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can anybody point me in the direction of some essential Lynch listening?
I think he was at his best in Dokken in the '80s, especially on the albums Tooth and Nail, Under Lock and Key and Back for the Attack, before he got into all the steroids and stuff.... I also like the first two Lynch Mob albums but haven't liked much of his more recent output that I've bought or heard.
Others may disagree!
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I can honestly say that Kurt Cobain is the only 'musician' who I actively troll and put down as I have a strong dislike for him bordeing on hatred. As much as I do like some hair metal there needed to be a change but bands like Alice In Chains were VASTLY superior to ####!! Cobang and also there was death and thrash metal too you know....that little band Metallica werent exactly glammed up when they started?! As well as being an awful excuse for a human being he was also plagiarist and would have been exposed had he not killed himself. Guitar isnt all about technical ability but Kurt had nothing to me at all to me, I just feel sorry for his kid not that he or Courtney cared when they were shooting up with smack all the time.
I'm no authority on Randy Rhoads and I wasnt there at the time but as far as I can see he was the only guy who got close to the rock n roll pyrotechnics of Eddie Van Halen and it took a few years for others to catch up (George Lynch get recognition a few years later). Further to that I think Randy took what Ritchie Blackmore and Uli Jon roth did in a different direction to another level (Big statement Blackmore is a God) and he carried Ozzy. Look at all the great guitarists Randy went on to inspire the list is ridiculous. Which bands have Nirvana actually inspired? Silverchair? PFFFFT please absolute dog shiteeeee.
Any way rant over. Not sure about who is underrated as its all relative and some great guitarists who dont get much fame always seem to have a cult following......... Shawn Lane could tear any one a new arsehole and Buckethead seems to be pushing the limits of electric and acoustic guitar even in this day and age.
My favourite guitar playing on any album ive heard this year was by Testament. Eric Peterson isnt far behind Dave Mustaine and Hetfield when it comes to writing legendary riffs and I think Alex Skolnick is the best thrash lead guitarist ever.
I agree about Chuck Schuldiner but those who like him know hes one of the greatest heavy metal guitarists of all time (Still doesnt get enough recognition tho for my liking).
Re George Lynch I prefer his Dokken stuff but type in Mr Scary on Youtube and watch him play with the drum machine.......... that shiteeeee is scary!!
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that said, I remember reading an old Guitarist interview with Jakey Lou who made some disparaging remarks about Lynch's rhythm playing (or rather it's lack of invention) can anybody point me in the direction of some essential Lynch listening?
I read that, too. He said GL, while his lead playing was phenomenal, his rhythm playing was rather boring and that he (JL) could almost predict what GL was going to play. That interview was done just after Badlands released their Voodoo Highway album.
At that time GL already left Dokken. My favorite Dokken album is "Back for the Attack". GL never sounded nastier than on this one, although I think his tone on the "Tooth and Nail" album was closest to his live tone on "Beast of the East".
I would agree that JL offered more variety in his rhythm playing.
Cheers Stephan
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Which bands have Nirvana actually inspired?
To be inspired by somebody does not equate to making music that sounds the same. To be recognised as an inspiration does not require the people you inspire to gain recognition.
He inspired a cultural shift for a generation of kids. Whether you rate him as a musician/person/artist is irrelevant. Nobody in your list has had any of that kind of impact on the music world at large.
As a kid who grew up in the 80s blessed with the back catalogue of the 60/70s, I was into both the thrash side of things and Motley etc before I discovered Bathory, Death, Autopsy etc. If I felt it was great guitar music I loved it. Because I loved the guitar I loved ANY guitar music that inspired me to pick it up. I was painfully aware that I would never reach that standard of shreddery and that the lyrical content of a lot of Death/Thrash/Hair metal is just plain feckin dumb, so Kurt Cobains strait to the point and back to basics heavy tunes were properly inspirational. His cryptic lyrics spoke to people as well. He played it like he meant it, not like he had practiced hard to be there.
I can also understand why people who spent years in the 80s believing hair metal was the pinacle of musical excellence find Kurt and his music to be an affront to all they believe. Everything has its place, especially now that time has relegated all of the music trends of the past to a level playing field.
(I agree with you on Chuck Schuldiner but his band was always destined to be sidelined to the masses because of his largely terrible lyric writing. Maybe some of the worst lyrics ever... Please don't make me quote them)
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Which bands have Nirvana actually inspired?
To be inspired by somebody does not equate to making music that sounds the same. To be recognised as an inspiration does not require the people you inspire to gain recognition.
He inspired a cultural shift for a generation of kids. Whether you rate him as a musician/person/artist is irrelevant. Nobody in your list has had any of that kind of impact on the music world at large.
As a kid who grew up in the 80s blessed with the back catalogue of the 60/70s, I was into both the thrash side of things and Motley etc before I discovered Bathory, Death, Autopsy etc. If I felt it was great guitar music I loved it. Because I loved the guitar I loved ANY guitar music that inspired me to pick it up. I was painfully aware that I would never reach that standard of shreddery and that the lyrical content of a lot of Death/Thrash/Hair metal is just plain feckin dumb, so Kurt Cobains strait to the point and back to basics heavy tunes were properly inspirational. His cryptic lyrics spoke to people as well. He played it like he meant it, not like he had practiced hard to be there.
I can also understand why people who spent years in the 80s believing hair metal was the pinacle of musical excellence find Kurt and his music to be an affront to all they believe. Everything has its place, especially now that time has relegated all of the music trends of the past to a level playing field.
(I agree with you on Chuck Schuldiner but his band was always destined to be sidelined to the masses because of his largely terrible lyric writing. Maybe some of the worst lyrics ever... Please don't make me quote them)
Yes and the Spice Girls also inspired a generation of young women, oh and Robbie Williams' Angels is the greatest song ever based on the slack jawed masses and popularity. Simon Cowell oh hes good isnt he? Pearl Jam were overtaking Nirvana any way had Kurt not killed himself. Your 'cultural' argument falls down any way as many people credit Schuldiner for being the Godfather of Death Metal a genre with a very strong following to this day. Wheres grunges following?
I could go on a huge rant about that dirty, weak junkie but i dont want to waste my energy. I wish people like you would stop stop comparing him to proper musicians like Randy Rhoads and or Chuck Schuldiner. Cobain was no great lyricist either as far as im concerned and no I dont want you to quote any Schuldiner lyrics at least he didnt try and pass off 'It's better to burn off than to fade away' as his own or rip off riffs from other bands.
Next youll be telling me Dave Grohl is the best drummer ever :?
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Which bands have Nirvana actually inspired?
To be inspired by somebody does not equate to making music that sounds the same. To be recognised as an inspiration does not require the people you inspire to gain recognition.
He inspired a cultural shift for a generation of kids. Whether you rate him as a musician/person/artist is irrelevant. Nobody in your list has had any of that kind of impact on the music world at large.
As a kid who grew up in the 80s blessed with the back catalogue of the 60/70s, I was into both the thrash side of things and Motley etc before I discovered Bathory, Death, Autopsy etc. If I felt it was great guitar music I loved it. Because I loved the guitar I loved ANY guitar music that inspired me to pick it up. I was painfully aware that I would never reach that standard of shreddery and that the lyrical content of a lot of Death/Thrash/Hair metal is just plain feckin dumb, so Kurt Cobains strait to the point and back to basics heavy tunes were properly inspirational. His cryptic lyrics spoke to people as well. He played it like he meant it, not like he had practiced hard to be there.
I can also understand why people who spent years in the 80s believing hair metal was the pinacle of musical excellence find Kurt and his music to be an affront to all they believe. Everything has its place, especially now that time has relegated all of the music trends of the past to a level playing field.
(I agree with you on Chuck Schuldiner but his band was always destined to be sidelined to the masses because of his largely terrible lyric writing. Maybe some of the worst lyrics ever... Please don't make me quote them)
Yes and the Spice Girls also inspired a generation of young women, oh and Robbie Williams' Angels is the greatest song ever based on the slack jawed masses and popularity. Simon Cowell oh hes good isnt he? Pearl Jam were overtaking Nirvana any way had Kurt not killed himself. Your 'cultural' argument falls down any way as many people credit Schuldiner for being the Godfather of Death Metal a genre with a very strong following to this day. Wheres grunges following?
I could go on a huge rant about that dirty, weak junkie but i dont want to waste my energy. I wish people like you would stop stop comparing him to proper musicians like Randy Rhoads and or Chuck Schuldiner. Cobain was no great lyricist either as far as im concerned and no I dont want you to quote any Schuldiner lyrics at least he didnt try and pass off 'It's better to burn off than to fade away' as his own or rip off riffs from other bands.
Next youll be telling me Dave Grohl is the best drummer ever :?
I don't mean to start a fight, but I feel like you're acting uneccessarily aggresive, not only to "Kurt" but to the users in general.
Also, I disagree with you.
Kurt Cobain wass certainly not in the same vein as people like the spice girls or Simon Cowell. He was the opposite.
He was the epitome of stripped down, natural music, and whether you like it or not he was a natural song writer that touched millions of people and showed that there was more than one way to make music in an era when everything was the same.
To say that he is cr@p is like saying that Bob Dylan, Tom Waits or BB King are cr@p.
Ignorant.
I'm not even a big fan of nirvana. I far prefer soundgarden and Pearl Jam but as an individual musician Kurt Cobain was undoubtedly special.
Also, you keep on referring back to Chuck and Rhoads as prime examples for "godly" musicians and not only is it very "fanboy-ish" but they are completely different musicians and you simply can't compare them to Cobain nor did they effect the world like he did. You're using the word "Inspiration" very directly. He change the way that people looked at music - just like Radiohead did with Kid A to a lesser extent, but you'll find very few people directly referencing them directly.
Guess why? Because when Cobain died so did the grunge scene and it hasn't come back.
That's how big his role was. He killed if glam rock and with killed of his own genre. Who else ever managed that?
Also...
Death have horrendous lyrics and Kurt's were much better and very similar to those of AiC, who you say that you love.
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JimmyM, you say about Kurt Cobain that you have ' have a strong dislike for him bordering on hatred '. Get things in perspective, hate is a very strong word. I'm sure he never did anything unpleasant to you personally. Nirvana was never about guitar pyrotechnics so if that's what floats your boat just don't listen to them. You have a choice. Personally I think Kurt was a breath of fresh air and I don't give a damn if he couldn't solo like EVH or whoever - that was NOT the point.
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So you don't like Nirvana or Kurt Cobain? Pissed off that some of his riffs are overfamiliar yet you are ok with hundreds of metal bands sounding like carbon copies of Death 20 years later? Chuck Schuldiner never used any Slayerisms or played like a carbon copy of Andy LaRocque? Double $%&#ing standards?
I'm not some lifelong fanboy of Kurt Cobain either he was a clearly troubled guy not fit for the public spotlight but it doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine no matter how much vitriol you throw at him. Grunge as anybody knows was an industry made up term to group together alternative rock bands with no real common sound because it confounded the people who were not expecting its success. To slate it as not being around anymore is stupid because it didn't exist as an actual recognisable music genre in the first place. And death metal (which I love by the way, so its not a vs. thing for me. Autopsy have always pissed on Death from a great height in my opinion) may still be around with a big following but so are many alternative rock bands from back then.
...for the record Dave Grohl gets on my nerves a bit. Hes not the greatest drummer but hes certainly not shiteeee. Hes seriously over exposed in the media and I hate the Foo Fighters. Most overrated band ever. Almost as overrated at Randy $%&#ing Rhoads. Even if he is a 'proper' musician. I suppose people like Johnny Cash aren't 'proper' musicians either.
As to your 'people like me'. Fk you. You don't know me. Keep your venom in check.
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I think we're at the point in this thread where the dancing penis is needed.
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I think we're at the point in this thread where the dancing penis is needed.
The old magic bad vibe remover!
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I think we're at the point in this thread where the dancing penis is needed.
The old magic bad vibe remover!
Exactly! Just not sure if it'll get me banned or not. I think just the thought of it lightens things up though. It's done its job.
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Maybe I should never have mentioned Kurt Cobain.... :oops:
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Maybe I should never have mentioned Kurt Cobain.... :oops:
It's all your fault. Shame on you! :x
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(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/353/279/e31.jpg)
:lol:
Lets keep this civil guys.
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Look im not being aggressive and I would never start 'a fight' in person over Cobain let alone over the internet. If I think youre very very wrong im sorry if I cant say it nicely.
I feel the need to add this thread started re underrated/overrated guitarists not 'cultural icons etc/MTV starlets' and I dont see how Kurt Cobain fits in compared to guitarists who are actually any good. Did any of his guitar playing really have an impact on any thing?
Maybe Chuck was influenced by Slayer but he never stole riffs like Kurt did. Death metal started with Chuck after his band Death and its carried on since that time after Chuck died, such is his legacy. I must admit I find your view re Schuldiner copying Larocque interesting but im not sure how I feel about that, they both had a 'crazy surreal exotic vibe' but I think so did say Marty Friedman did or George Lynch..... Schuldiner really looked up to Larocque though no doubt.
Cobain was commercial, he was always ringing up MTV complaining his videos werent on dont make out if he was so anti establishment why didnt he make music in his cupboard? The reason I would go as far as to say I hate him is because he and Courtney Love were still taking heroin when they were having a child and afterwards and people like that should be put to death. No im not a christian pro lifer but I just dont agree with drug abuse when youre having a kid. Does it affect me personally no......but im not the sort of person who ignores bad things or bad people just because it doesnt affect me.
It's funny you feel as if I shouldnt put Kurt down when he was worse than any one for putting down other bands....he called Pearl Jam c--k rock after all and regularly called Guns N Roses because....well i dunno they were more succesful?
Kurt was a beginner to intermediate guitarist and I dont like anyof his riffs..... I know all the emo slitty wrist folk like it and thats nice but he didnt know any thing. I remember when he spoke of himself as a guitarist he said something similar to 'I cant play like Sergovia but the flip side is Sergovia couldntplay like me' which is beyond retarded.
For the record I really like Johnny Cash and as for Bob Dylan I dont get it but I dont dislike it.
Any way in summary ill say I think Kurt was a bad human being so its not just that he had little musical ability. I really dont think he contributed much re guitar playing though and you'd be hard pressed to say he did compared to Randy Rhoads. I'm not sure why you need to put Randy down either for all his virtuoisty he was very humble and died tragically at a very young age, a very different species from Cobain!
Im a big fan of prog rock and what I call 'proper metal' so I clash with punks and 'grunge'. To me I like music for music and I dont need some bands to sell me an image/identity/ethos.
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Look im not being aggressive and I would never start 'a fight' in person over Cobain let alone over the internet. If I think youre very very wrong im sorry if I cant say it nicely.
You are coming across as pretty aggressive. If you can't say things in a 'nice' way maybe you need to address your social skills.
I feel the need to add this thread started re underrated/overrated guitarists not 'cultural icons etc/MTV starlets' and I dont see how Kurt Cobain fits in compared to guitarists who are actually any good. Did any of his guitar playing really have an impact on any thing?
I think it did. I think rather than looking to technical prowess to push songs a lot of bands started to try other ideas. I mean just of the top of my head I'd wonder where Radiohead or Blur would be without Nirvana, and another generation of kids love Johnny Greenwood and Graham Coxon even if you don't and those bands have written some great songs. Neither of those bands sound like Nirvana though. "Good" can be defined differently. I'll enjoy anyone who can produce something my ears enjoy. It doesn't matter about their technical knowledge or ability. I enjoy the guitar in Cat Power records. Tim Kinsella of American Football wrote some incredible music too. He is a super underrated guitarist in my opinion. I'd wonder where he might be without that rise of Nirvana. Whether he was directly effected or not. I've known really awesome technical guitarist who can't pull off certain genres at all. It's all subjective.
Maybe Chuck was influenced by Slayer but he never stole riffs like Kurt did. Death metal started with Chuck after his band Death and its carried on since that time after Chuck died, such is his legacy. I must admit I find your view re Schuldiner copying Larocque interesting but im not sure how I feel about that, they both had a 'crazy surreal exotic vibe' but I think so did say Marty Friedman did or George Lynch..... Schuldiner really looked up to Larocque though no doubt.
Slayer, thrash, death... blah blah blah. Bad Brains were tearing it up faster than most as far back as 1979. That is why the Bad Brains and each member of the Bad Brains remains underrated to this day. Also, as far as influential bands goes... nobody has yet mentioned Cro-Mags. Parris Mayhew is a BEAST of a guitarist.
Cobain was commercial, he was always ringing up MTV complaining his videos werent on dont make out if he was so anti establishment why didnt he make music in his cupboard? The reason I would go as far as to say I hate him is because he and Courtney Love were still taking heroin when they were having a child and afterwards and people like that should be put to death. No im not a christian pro lifer but I just dont agree with drug abuse when youre having a kid. Does it affect me personally no......but im not the sort of person who ignores bad things or bad people just because it doesnt affect me.
It's funny you feel as if I shouldnt put Kurt down when he was worse than any one for putting down other bands....he called Pearl Jam c--k rock after all and regularly called Guns N Roses because....well i dunno they were more succesful?
I have to disagree with your sentiments here. While I've never even tried a cigarette and I was t-total for 11years, knowing people who have had and overcome addiction problems, I would never make some blanket statement that anyone in a cycle of substance abuse should be "put to death". If I did, I would feel like I would be wasting my own humanity. Anything like that is tough to understand. I don't like that situation and wouldn't want to see friends go through it, but I'd never say based purely on what is reported about some strangers in that position that they should be killed. It's a tough thing to go through, and I doubt they themselves found it easy and it's easy to seperated from it and talk about what you believe they should have done (and maybe I would agree with those suggestions) but I can't back up what you've said I'm afraid.
Kurt was a beginner to intermediate guitarist and I dont like anyof his riffs..... I know all the emo slitty wrist folk like it and thats nice but he didnt know any thing. I remember when he spoke of himself as a guitarist he said something similar to 'I cant play like Sergovia but the flip side is Sergovia couldntplay like me' which is beyond retarded.
It doesn't matter how good you think he was or that you don't like any of his riffs. Do you think the best paintings are the ones that look most like photographs? Are the best sculptures the ones that most resemble real objects/people? Music is another form of art. I think you're argument (maybe even this thread) falls apart here. If people were trying to argue Cobains technical brilliance then maybe you'd be able to argue your points, but I'd say his music had a large impact and his music was just him using the tools he had available. I don't see how that is so offensive. Whether you like him as a person is irrelevant. I probably wouldn't enjoy being around Malmsteen based on his interview, but that doesn't make him a bad artist. Same with any painter, sculpter, architect etc...
EDIT: I'd also like to mention the guitar players Johnny Marr and Jim Martin
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I could reply to some of that but I feel the need to say you're taking this in a complete different diretion now and really twisting what ive said.
I didnt say drug users should be put to death that was very clear in what I said. I said persons who are pregnant or raising children and abuse drugs particularly drugs such as heroin should be put to death. Any 'Mother' injecting themselves with heroin or 'parents' having a heroin habit around their children whilst on heroin should be put to death. Picture it properly a pregnant woman shooting herself up with heroin (Sounds like some Schuldiner lyrics though so its probably silly yeah?) or having a child in the house surrounded by dirty needles..... disgusting. Last time I checked Malmsteen may be a bit c--ky but didnt sink that low!
If you can defend actions such as this in any way id love to know! Will you be campaigning for paedophiles rights soon?
I still maintain im not being aggressive. This is the internet and I disagree with what others have said. Im not stood in the street shouting in your face threatening you or attacking you. That is aggression, not being sat behind a computer screen exchanging views. I probably shouldnt have brought up my views on this and regret it.... its like challenging Michael Jackson fans on the fact he has sex with kids I guess!
It does baffle me how any one can think thats AS A GUITARIST Kurt should even be mentioned in the same sentence as say Randy Rhoads but meh
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I could reply to some of that but I feel the need to say you're taking this in a complete different diretion now and really twisting what ive said.
I didnt say drug users should be put to death and very clear for what I said. I meant persons who are pregnant or raising children and abuse drugs particularly drugs such as heroin should be put to death. Any 'Mother' injecting themselves with heroin or 'parents' having a heroin habit around their children whilst on heroin should be put to death. Picture it properly a pregnant woman shooting herself up with heroin (Sounds like some Schuldiner lyrics though so its probably silly yeah?) or having a child in the house surrounded by dirty needles..... disgusting.
If you defend that in any way id love to know......
I'm not defending it at all, but I personally think that suggesting people be put to death based purely on second hand knowledge of their drug habits and absolutely nothing else about their situation personally or socially is ridiculous. I don't presume to know what goes through the minds of those people but I wouldn't judge them and sentence them to death when I don't know anything about anyone in that situation. I don't think people laugh and joke while shooting up during pregnancy. My opinion is that you seem to have a pretty black & white view about it all. I don't need to picture it, I know people that have come through addiction and watched a lot of their friends die in the process. If you think they deserved to die then I think it's you that is the real sub human. I'd just like to stress, I don't feel you've touched a nerve with me. I'm just clarifying where I stand what you've said. Now we can agree to disagree and the thread can continue.
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I could reply to some of that but I feel the need to say you're taking this in a complete different diretion now and really twisting what ive said.
I didnt say drug users should be put to death and very clear for what I said. I meant persons who are pregnant or raising children and abuse drugs particularly drugs such as heroin should be put to death. Any 'Mother' injecting themselves with heroin or 'parents' having a heroin habit around their children whilst on heroin should be put to death. Picture it properly a pregnant woman shooting herself up with heroin (Sounds like some Schuldiner lyrics though so its probably silly yeah?) or having a child in the house surrounded by dirty needles..... disgusting.
If you defend that in any way id love to know......
I'm not defending it at all, but I personally think that suggesting people be put to death based purely on second hand knowledge of their drug habits and absolutely nothing else about their situation personally or socially is ridiculous. I don't presume to know what goes through the minds of those people but I wouldn't judge them and sentence them to death when I don't know anything about anyone in that situation. I don't think people laugh and joke while shooting up during pregnancy. My opinion is that you seem to have a pretty black & white view about it all. I don't need to picture it, I know people that have come through addiction and watched a lot of their friends die in the process. If you think they deserved to die then I think it's you that is the real sub human. I'd just like to stress, I don't feel you've touched a nerve with me. I'm just clarifying where I stand what you've said. Now we can agree to disagree and the thread can continue.
Youre still missing the point.
I dont think drug users should be put to death.
I think sub-humans who subject babies or children to drugs such as heroin (Which is very likely to kill or disable them) are a waste of oxygen. If you know drug users fine. If you are friends or excuse people who subject children drugs such as heroin I admit in that context I could get pretty aggressive with you!
I've had friends die from drug use but NONE of them forced it on others let alone children.
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So... Are you a Pete Doherty fan as well?
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So... Are you a Pete Doherty fan as well?
Dont see how thats relevant?
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Nobody I know forced anything like that on kids or others either, nor do I support that. I'm glad I'm safe from your aggression.
EDIT: I just noticed that you edited your post to ask if I don't want drug abusers who are pregnant or parents to be put to death, would I campaign for rights for peadophiles. The answer to this question is no. I don't think you've understood what I've said, which is a shame, and jumping from that issue to that sarcastic assumption is something I do find incredibly offensive on a personal level... internet or not.
As far as Kurt and Rhodes in the same sentence... I can see that being baffling if people were comparing technical ability alone but I'm not sure that is the best measure. You might disagree.
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Kurt Cobain as a guitarist......influenced millions of people, had i not heard the "Bleach" album, i may never have picked up a guitar at all, it had raw, catchy and IMHO some heavy riffs on that album that directly influenced me.
When asked about kurt as a guitarist, Mick "No#7" Thomson even admitted that while kurt couldn't sweep arpeggios at a million miles an hour, Mick couldn't write a riff as good as Smells Like Teen Spirit.
Yes, kurt was an extremely troubled person whos drug use was harmful to himself and to his child and those close to him, but this thread is evaluating someones influence as a guitarist, not as messianic paragons of virtue
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Think of the children!
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I never thought I'd hear anyone on this forum talk about people being put to death mainly due to their lack of musical ability. It seems that Jimmy's hatred stems firstly from a dislike of Kurt Cobain's music and secondly from a distaste for how he lived his life. Jimmy clearly has no understanding of the tragedy that is heroin addiction. Many great works of art, music and literature have come from people who are tortured souls - sad but true.
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Im not even going to get into the rights and wrongs of heroin addiction and havent so I dont seehow you can judge me. Ive made it clear this is about subjecting children to it and im not going to repeat this any more it seems like many of youcant grasp this VERY simple point which ive made VERY clear. I've also made it VERY clear I dont think drug users should be put to death, just those who subject children to it. I personally think heroin is stupid and I dont know any heroin user who think its a good idea. Whilst many of them cant hold down jobs and do commit crime to fund their habits this is very annoying and should be punishable (NOT BY DEATH) and they should be forced to go on drug programmes to get off of it.......... shocking I know, im so right wing bordering on crazy neo-nazi ideology (Sarcasm) but Class A drugs are still illegal in the UK! Any way my point is that even if a heroin addict leaves a dirty used needle in a public place for some one to get caught on catch say hep c or b that would be disgusting but even the VAST majority of heroin addicts would know that sort of lifestyle and injecting yourself with heroin is disgusting.
You have no idea how many drug addicts or heroin addicts I know. I think theyre naive and weak butI wouldnt suggest putting them to death. The ones who hurt kids? Well I wouldnt lose an sleep if anyone did although I wouldnt go and kill them personally......its a common expression yunno 'I could kill him' or 'they should be shot' etc etc. Doesnt mean ive planned or commited any murders ! It happens far too much a bit of methadone getting in a childs milk bottle and dying or babies born with deformties or addicted to heroin.
If any of you bother to do your research youll find that your precious Kurt Cobain who influenced millions with a few power chords and Courtney Love were still taking heroin whilst Love was pregnant. I must admit I have a very sick sense of humour at times but I draw the line at kids being subjected to heroin or harm.
Like I said I regret bringing this up now but I believe someone said 'Keep this is perspective dont say you hate him'. Well ive explained that I think Kurt was a rubbish guitarist, singer, songwriter, a plagiarist and an awful person. Mock me all you want and say im aggressive but I really think i'm right and you're all wrong. To me you're like all the crazy Michael Jackson fans who said he was innocent even though he admiited on national TV to sleeping with kids! I've justified my hatred for him I guess most people this God awful dont get called a cultural icon though.
On a lighter note I remember Mick saying something similar to that too about Cobain...... and also that his favourite guitarist ever is Randy Rhoads ;) Like I said I wish id never brought this up now and wouldnt bother to post again but im not being misrepresented by people saying I want to 'kill all the druggies'.
For Gods sakes I took lots of drugs when I was younger just about every thing BUT heroin. I personally think I have the strength of mind to never get addicted to any drugs and I wasnt stupid enough to even try heroin but you ALWAYS have a choice when it comes to subjecting other persons to drugs no matter how addicted you are.
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I never thought I'd hear anyone on this forum talk about people being put to death mainly due to their lack of musical ability. It seems that Jimmy's hatred stems firstly from a dislike of Kurt Cobain's music and secondly from a distaste for how he lived his life. Jimmy clearly has no understanding of the tragedy that is heroin addiction. Many great works of art, music and literature have come from people who are tortured souls - sad but true.
And I definitely never said any one should be put to death for a lack of musical ability............Christ this is just a case of me repeating my self now.....
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Drugs are bad m'kay. lol at off topic raging.
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(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnwai0fFsL1qmsj87o1_400.jpg)