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Author Topic: Warmoth Strat options  (Read 11751 times)

Nolly

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Warmoth Strat options
« on: January 12, 2008, 02:41:26 AM »
Hi there,

Apologies in advance for what I'm sure will be a monster post. I'll attempt to put the most necessary info in bold to make it easier to read.

I'll be at music college from September of this year, and I feel like I need to have a versatile workhorse guitar for session work and more traditional sounds. I'm looking at Warmoth guitars, because it seems like the cheapest way to get a high-quality personalised instrument. I'm looking to spec an extremely versatile strat-style guitar since all of my other guitars have dual humbuckers, and I've always found the strat shape to be the most comfortable.

I'm hoping that someone with knowledge of tonewoods and electronics can help me out with a few questions I have.

I already have the pickup set that will be going into this guitar. It's a Joe Barden H/S/S set (sorry Tim!). They are incredibly clear, transparent and are hum-cancelling. The bridge pickup can be split to exactly the same specs as the single-coil bridge model, so I get the best of both worlds.

I've always loved strats, but found a lot of niggling things that mean that I find them practically unplayable.

Firstly, I always long for a fatter, warmer tone. The tone Andy Timmons gets from his mahogany AT300s makes my jaw drop. Here's a link to a video which demonstrates this tone: link. For this reason I was thinking of getting a mahogany body. I do still want it to have that strat flavour - is mahogany a bad choice? I'll be speccing the comfort heel since I'll frequently need the upper fret access.

Neckwise, I'm a fan of all-maple necks. I don't, however, see many maple necks/fretboards paired with mahogany bodies. Is there a reason for this? I've always been a fan of thin, fast necks so I'll be wanting the wizard profile and big frets. I'm also very fussy about my guitars' intonation, so I'll be fitting an Earvana nut.

I don't like tremelo systems, but for the sake of versatility, I will be looking to fit a Wilkinson bridge with locking tuners and a tremelo-no device.

Finally, the electronics. One of the things I find most offputting about stock strats is the placement of the pots. I bang my picking hand against the volume knob whenever I'm picking on the top strings, and I have no need for two tone knobs. My solution is the following: I place the volume pot where the outermost tone knob normally goes, and just above it, instead of a tone knob I have 3-way toggle.
The idea behind the toggle is: I know that even when at maximum, a tone pot has an inherent capacitance that lowers the output and rolls off the high end. My idea is to have a toggle with a couple of capacitors attached that enables me to switch between the sound of the guitar without a tone knob, with a "simulated" tone knob, and the simulated tone knob set to half-way. That way, I'll have three preset sounds ranging from bright and hot to warm and smooth. Has anyone tried or heard of a similar idea?

Thanks very much for your time in reading this. I have given it a lot of though and would greatly appreciate any input and/or opinions.


Adam

jordan

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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2008, 09:59:23 AM »
Hi Adam,

If you're looking for more warmth from a Strat, I can highly recommend getting the hollow body option from warmoth. I did this with an alder back and flame maple top, and it's a great combination. Fat sounding,  but still as clear as a strat should be. To my ears it improves everything, with no drawbacks.

You can read about the guitar I made here: http://creationoffrank.blogspot.com (It might make sense to read from the bottom up on the page).

Feel free to PM me or ask me any more questions on here - I spent the best part of a year glued to the warmoth site, so I have a fair few opinions on what they offer. I'm really happy with how mine turned out (note that it's a hardtail), and would definitely build a warmoth guitar again - I reckon mine could be made in total for under £1000, which is outstanding value for money.

Cheers
Jordan.

WezV

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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2008, 10:34:48 AM »
the first thing i would say is to price it up as exactly as possible first

Nothing wrong with a mahogany body and all maple neck  - infact i quite like the idea.    Jordan makes a good point about the hollow body option.. it is something you should consider

If you dont really like trems i wounldnt bother with one.  Get it as a hardtail and save some money on the bridge and tremelno that you probably wont use... Its always tempting to squeeze everything into a guitar project but its best to stick with what you need and will definately use.  Also a string though body hardtail on mahogany body with maple neck will sound pretty killer.

The tone control idea is fine - infact its existed for a long time and is called a varitone switch

I have this one on a guitar
http://bigdguitars.com/varitonespec.htm

and i like it a lot

here is a link to home made versions that should work just as well

http://alexplorer.net/guitar/mods/varitone.html

Philly Q

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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2008, 11:18:30 AM »
In terms of getting a fat, warm tone, are you totally sure about the Joe Barden pickups?  I agree that they're incredibly clear and transparent, but looked at in another light they can also sound rather harsh and clinical.  The less "hi-fi" sound of more traditional pickups could contribute to that warm sound you're after.

I was trying out some different Tele bridge pickups, all in the same guitar, about a week ago.  I hadn't heard a Barden for a long time, and I was amazed by just how bright and in-your-face it is.  I'm hardly in a position to argue with Danny Gatton, but to me it doesn't sound at all like a single-coil (or even stacked humbucking) Tele pickup.  Having said that, I think I will put it in one of my Teles, but with something totally different in the neck position.
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Nolly

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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 11:45:49 AM »
Thanks for your replies guys, it's great to hear your opinions, and all of you have picked up on points I have been debating for a long time.

I was definitely considering the hollow body option, but I managed to forget about it when I was writing the post. Would a mahogany hollow-body be too dark sounding?

I have always been split about the trem idea. I don't really have a need for one, my thinking was, however, with session work you never know what you may be asked to do. That said, I'm a self-confessed trem-hater and would love to hear what a string-through mahogany strat would sound like.

Good to hear the toggle idea has been done before. I'm guessing that if I only wanted three positions, it wouldn't be too hard to wire up myself?

As far as the Joe Barden's go, their brightness has me worried. My experience is that they retain a lot of the characteristics of the guitar's wood. My hope was that combined with a dark-sounding tonewood the high-end would be tamed. The splitting system of the humbucker is very appealing as I could basically have a single-coil and a humbucker in one.  I'm simply looking for the most versatile equipment I can find.
Philly, do you have any pickup suggestions. I have considered Dimarzio Cruisers (since they're what Andy Timmons uses), as well as Kinmans. I have no experience of the BK single-coils: are there any that would suit my needs?

Apologies for another long post!

Adam

P.S Jordan, your strat looks amazing!

Philly Q

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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 12:54:13 PM »
Since your guitar's going to be an all-rounder for session work and more traditional sounds, I'd be looking at vintage-output single-coils that give a "typical" Strat sound.  I know less about session work than I do about life on the surface of Jupiter's moons, but I'd guess producers usually expect to hear fairly generic "Strat"/"Les Paul"/"Rickenbacker" etc guitar sounds rather than anything outlandish(?).  Or is that an old-fashioned idea I've got there?

If you want hum-cancelling "single-coils", (I'd better whisper because that's not popular round these parts  :wink: ), Cruisers are good but again they sound rather humbuckerish thanks to the dual-blade, side-by-side coil design.  I think you're better off with stacked humbuckers like Kinmans or DiMarzio Virtual Vintages.  IMO they sound very close to true SC pickups when clean (close enough for me anyway, but I'm no Eric Johnson.  More Eric Morecambe really).  With distortion they still seem to take on a little of that smooth humbucker character, but personally I like that.

I haven't tried any of the newer Kinman sets (I have an older AVn Blues set), but I'd guess either the Traditional or Blues sets would do the job.  DiMarzio had loads of different Virtual Vintage models, but they've simplified the line a bit recently and the new Area '58 and Area '61 models have been getting good reviews.  I've got a 61/58/58 set for one of my Strats but (as usual) haven't found time to fit them yet.

Chris Kinman makes a big deal about using his pickups with 250K pots, which could be a problem if you have a bridge humbucker.  DiMarzio always said the VVs would work with 250K, but dropped pretty heavy hints that 500K would be better - I believe the "Area" pickups are designed to be more compatible with 250K.

Or why not get some "proper" single-coils from our friends at BKP?  With a bridge humbucker, a RW/RP middle pickup and some clever wiring, you could have a guitar that's hum-cancelling in 3 (or even 4) of the 5 positions.  I haven't tried any of the BKP singles, but I'd have thought stay vintage and go with Apaches (never heard a bad word about them) or Mothers Milks.

I'm not going to try to comment on bridge humbuckers, because the possibilities are endless.

(Edit: Sorry for that very long post!)
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Henk

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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 03:00:27 PM »
I love maple necks on mahagony bodies on my maple necked LP's and i can imagine it would work out well as a strat aswell. I do second the hardtail idea, good sustain is always worth missing a tremelo IMO.

The mahagony/maple guitars i have (with an ebony fretboard) have a very well controlled sound, direct, dynamic and have good harmonics but never too much, so you still have to work it hard to get it out the right way, which i like. I dont consider them very warm sounding, and i also doubt a holow body would be any warmer sounding, try the Fender Classic 69 Telecaster Thinline(solid colors have mahagony body) before you decide, to me at least it didnt sound very nice.

Secondly i think the idea of a warm sounding strat is great but will be quite hard, especially when you put Joe Bardens in. What mahagony will do is take off the sharp edges which IMHO will be exactly right, at least it always has been like that for me(huge, clear sound without too much harshness/frizzyness).

I like my custom (with maple neck) and a mules set best for recording, its allmost completely neutral PAF tone and very clear and cutting which is crucial when recording IMHO.

So thats about it, maple neck (with ebony even better IMO) hardtail and if you get bored with the Joe Bardens, which i cant imagine otherwise, get a unpotted but covered 4-conductor Mule for the bridge, sweet!
Mules in '76 Gibson custom with maple neck.

Philly Q

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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2008, 03:28:10 PM »
Quote from: jordan
You can read about the guitar I made here: http://creationoffrank.blogspot.com (It might make sense to read from the bottom up on the page).

A little off-topic, but that was a good read.  It's funny how you can replace everything bit-by-bit on a Fender-style guitar, but somehow at the end you still think of it as the same guitar!  :lol:

I was wondering, did you put the original "Frank" back together at the end of it all, or had you ditched the old parts as you replaced them?
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

jordan

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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2008, 05:01:37 PM »
Quote from: Philly Q
Quote from: jordan
You can read about the guitar I made here: http://creationoffrank.blogspot.com (It might make sense to read from the bottom up on the page).

A little off-topic, but that was a good read.  It's funny how you can replace everything bit-by-bit on a Fender-style guitar, but somehow at the end you still think of it as the same guitar!  :lol:

I was wondering, did you put the original "Frank" back together at the end of it all, or had you ditched the old parts as you replaced them?


Yeah - it's still Frank, regardless of how many parts get swapped (all of them except the control dials in this case!).

I sold the original strat off bit by bit as the project went along, although now I kinda wish I'd kept the parts for a spare. I gotta say though, this Strat is my number #1 electric for pretty much everything. Even for heavy rock and metal the Apaches coupled with the Rivera amp work great :)

Ted

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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2008, 06:07:28 PM »
Quote from: Nolly
Thanks for your replies guys, it's great to hear your opinions, and all of you have picked up on points I have been debating for a long time.

I was definitely considering the hollow body option, but I managed to forget about it when I was writing the post. Would a mahogany hollow-body be too dark sounding?

I have always been split about the trem idea. I don't really have a need for one, my thinking was, however, with session work you never know what you may be asked to do. That said, I'm a self-confessed trem-hater and would love to hear what a string-through mahogany strat would sound like.

Good to hear the toggle idea has been done before. I'm guessing that if I only wanted three positions, it wouldn't be too hard to wire up myself?

As far as the Joe Barden's go, their brightness has me worried. My experience is that they retain a lot of the characteristics of the guitar's wood. My hope was that combined with a dark-sounding tonewood the high-end would be tamed. The splitting system of the humbucker is very appealing as I could basically have a single-coil and a humbucker in one.  I'm simply looking for the most versatile equipment I can find.
Philly, do you have any pickup suggestions. I have considered Dimarzio Cruisers (since they're what Andy Timmons uses), as well as Kinmans. I have no experience of the BK single-coils: are there any that would suit my needs?

Apologies for another long post!

Adam

P.S Jordan, your strat looks amazing!


Nolly - also post this on the Warmoth board.

BUT

Quote
Would a mahogany hollow-body be too dark sounding


Not if you pair it with an all maple neck. This should work fine.

Your pickups will really have a big influence on tone, but I am not familiar with the Bardens at all.

Good luck.

Nolly

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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2008, 06:12:58 PM »
Thanks for all the input guys-I really appreciate it!

I sense another long post

I think I'm set on having a fixed bridge. I'd never use the trem, and the tonal benefits would be awesome. I suppose it'd be no less limiting than turning up with a Tele.

Philly, you're right about producer's wanting fairly generic guitar tones. Thankfully, they often aren't necessarily that interested in the subtle differences between tonewoods in different models. As long as the guitar sounds vaguely strat-like they tend to be satisfied.
My aim is to strike a balance between the generic strat tone, and the specific sound I have in my head. After all, if I'm going to drop close to £1000 on a guitar, I want to be completely satisfied with the end result!

Pickups-wise, I think you guys have managed to get me to listen to my own doubts about Joe Bardens. Perhaps they aren't the best choice given the criteria I have. I'm not snooty about the type of pickups I use. I have no problem in using noise-cancelling single coils of either type. I have played strats with Kinmans, and I really like their tone. I haven't tried the Virtual Vintage pickups, but I'm assuming they're much in the same vein.
Obviously, I'm a BKP fan, and if they're be the best option I'd be very happy to support Tim's business. Apache's seem to be like the Mules of the single-coil world, if you know what I mean. I'd be very intrigued to try a set. How do they differ from the Mother's Milks?

Sorry to bring the bridge HB into consideration, I'm aware of the huge amount of options. If we restrict it to BKs for the moment, which of the range will give the fattest, warmest tone. The split sound is a very important thing to take into consideration as well. Am I right in assuming that Mules are fairly punchy and aggressive?

Also, all my humbucking guitars use 250k pots. What would the benefit of using a 500k volume pot in this guitar be?

As far as the guitar body is concerned, I don't believe that the hollow Warmoth bodies are the same thing as your standard hollow body guitar (such as the thinline Tele's). At least that's what I have understood from this page.
Jordan, does the lighter body cause the guitar to be neck-heavy in any way?
I have always preferred the tone of strats with all maple necks, hence why I'm not really considering other woods for that.
I hope it doesn't come across that I'm attempting to turn a strat into a Les Paul. I am still aiming for a decidely strattish end result, but with a much fatter sound.

Cheers!

Adam

Nolly

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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2008, 06:15:07 PM »
Quote from: Ted


Nolly - also post this on the Warmoth board.

BUT

Quote
Would a mahogany hollow-body be too dark sounding


Not if you pair it with an all maple neck. This should work fine.

Your pickups will really have a big influence on tone, but I am not familiar with the Bardens at all.

Good luck.


Cheers Ted. I'll do that! Glad to hear that body neck combo isn't going to be rubbish!

Philly Q

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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2008, 07:38:35 PM »
Quote from: Nolly
Also, all my humbucking guitars use 250k pots. What would the benefit of using a 500k volume pot in this guitar be?

A 500K pot will "open out" the top end a little bit, and possibly give slightly more volume.  A 1Meg pot would brighten it even more, but maybe at the cost of some harshness.  

250K can make a humbucker sound a bit muffled, but it can also sound warm and woody.  I haven't got any H/S/S guitars, but if I did I'd personally go with 250K to favour the single-coils.  If you're already used to humbuckers with 250Ks, I wouldn't bother messing about with 500Ks.  And if you end up with the Bardens, definitely don't get 500Ks - they'll be so piercing they'll kill small woodland animals and bring down low-flying aircraft.

Quote
If we restrict it to BKs for the moment, which of the range will give the fattest, warmest tone. The split sound is a very important thing to take into consideration as well. Am I right in assuming that Mules are fairly punchy and aggressive?

It's a tough one for me to comment on, as all my BKP humbuckers are in Gibson-ish guitars.  From what I've read, I've always thought the VHII sounded like a good HB for a bolt-on - "big" and open, although some say it's fairly bright.  I don't think the Mule is particularly punchy and aggressive, I believe (again from what I've read) it's a warm but clear vintage PAF, with a kick in the midrange.  Could be a great choice if it works in a Strat.

For fat and warm, I'd consider the Black Dog or Crawler.  The BD has lots of low-mid thump, but I think of it more as a Les Paul pickup - don't know how it'd work in a Strat.  The Crawler is designed to be "equally at home in a Strat or Les Paul type body", but I wonder if it's a little too powerful.  I'm assuming you're not going for anything really high-output.

Might be a question for Tim!  :wink:
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Nolly

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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2008, 07:56:42 PM »
Quote from: Philly Q
Quote from: Nolly
If we restrict it to BKs for the moment, which of the range will give the fattest, warmest tone. The split sound is a very important thing to take into consideration as well. Am I right in assuming that Mules are fairly punchy and aggressive?

It's a tough one for me to comment on, as all my BKP humbuckers are in Gibson-ish guitars.  From what I've read, I've always thought the VHII sounded like a good HB for a bolt-on - "big" and open, although some say it's fairly bright.  I don't think the Mule is particularly punchy and aggressive, I believe (again from what I've read) it's a warm but clear vintage PAF, with a kick in the midrange.  Could be a great choice if it works in a Strat.

For fat and warm, I'd consider the Black Dog or Crawler.  The BD has lots of low-mid thump, but I think of it more as a Les Paul pickup - don't know how it'd work in a Strat.  The Crawler is designed to be "equally at home in a Strat or Les Paul type body", but I wonder if it's a little too powerful.  I'm assuming you're not going for anything really high-output.

Might be a question for Tim!  :wink:


Thanks for the advice Philly, you've been a great help.
As you guessed, I'm really not looking for anything high-output, so I'm guessing the VHII, BD and RY are all going to be a tad aggressive.
Sounds like the Mules may well be a great choice though. I know it's not why they're named. but something about the name "Mule" gives the impression that they're going to have a real kick to them. Maybe with a lower output magnet they'd be just the ticket.
I wouldn't even contemplate buying BKs without a chat with Tim first. I'll give him a call on Monday. It'll a while before this guitar will come to fruition but I'm really eager to get started now!

Thanks again for your help!

Adam

Philly Q

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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2008, 08:18:36 PM »
I'm looking forward to seeing pics of this guitar in due course!  :D
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM