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Author Topic: miracle man doing what it's made for: METHUUUUUULZZ  (Read 14810 times)

il˙ti

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Re: miracle man doing what it's made for: METHUUUUUULZZ
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2008, 03:42:16 PM »
MDV: I agree completely with your views on genre classification, but I really don't think it has anything to do with what O9 was talking about. If you do have genre classifications, might aswell make them mean something. It also had nothing to do with whether O9 liked the bands or not.
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MDV

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Re: miracle man doing what it's made for: METHUUUUUULZZ
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2008, 04:09:30 PM »
I was being fascitious with the comment about it not being my thing.

My general point to opp is that his definitions of what are and are not are representations of his own perspective only, and that is true the music world over - people key into different aspects of the music, it affects different people in different ways, and they interpret it differently according to whatever other musical exposure they've had and define it by reference to what they know.

That makes the entire exercise of genre analness subjective and largely pseudointellectual autoerotic pontification. The absolutes of this IS metal, this IS blues this IS bee-wop-felmenco-post-core-soul-metal that they try to set in stone and force others to categorise in arent absolutes in the slightest. They are nothing more than what they think it is.

Want proof?

Ask anyone that gives a different answer.

Why?

Because music is fundamentally subjective. Its an art form and an expression medium, not a science. Everyones answer is the right answer, because thats what it means to them.

The solution?

Stop worrying about naming stuff at all and just take any music as you find it and enjoy it for what you hear in it.

FernandoDuarte

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Re: miracle man doing what it's made for: METHUUUUUULZZ
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2008, 05:20:03 PM »
I can't take anybody's opinion seriously that believes there is "No one as heavy as Phil Anselmo on vocals."  Or that "Pantera were one of the best metal bands ever."  Truth be told that comment was meant a bit facetiously, but only with the most serious backing in beliefs that "Pantera are one of the most mediocre metal bands ever."  :wink:

You have lost a good chance of stay quiet on your own...

opprobrium_9

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Re: miracle man doing what it's made for: METHUUUUUULZZ
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2008, 03:30:47 AM »
Meshuggah not metal?

I had a hard time wrapping my mind around it at first too, but then i listened again and realized why it actually is the case.  Admittedly, i do agree that Meshuggah and like bands are blurry borderline bands where any kind of distinction is all but worthless because, generally, they defy classification.  Especially Meshuggah in this case, for giving them any genre label makes little sense because there either isn't one for them yet, or again, they just don't fit into any one category.

I never said a band is wrong for "not being Metal" or "Metal enough" or whatever.  I just think it is helpful to be able to reference the different genres and sub-genres in terms of riff construction, drum construction, vocal style, lyrical/ideological bounds, and myriad other classifiers for the sake of specificity.  Now, given that i am somewhat OCD to begin with, i suppose am prone to say that anyways.

As to your other points, i understand what you are saying, and yes, any artform affords a certain amount of subjectivity.  But like ilyti says, the genre classifications are there, they deserve to have meaning.  I personally like figuring out what something is based on what its origins are musically, what bands or sounds or genres influenced it, and how in the end these things effect the music enough to set it in a specific genre; and then, what that means for the genre.  Because when talking about music i generally don't debate whether something is or isn't something, i want to talk about what it is based on where it came from, where its roots are, and what it meant/how it influenced others musically, ideologically, whathaveyou.  Everything has origins in something, and i find that important, for the vitality of music is not just about the art itself, it is about the intentions of the art and that has very much to do with origins as well as the effects on other art around it. 

Picasso and Georges Braque engineered Cubism - a new genre, if you will - but it had origins in something, that something being the meticulous study of form and geometry, and that origin therefore influenced the absolute intention of their works: to express and showcase a new study of form.  It became a genre on its own through the ingenuity of the artists, but it was their artistic intention and interest in the origins of form that informed their masterpieces.  Similarly, with music artistic intention and origins have much to do with what the outcome of the work is, but like Cubism, may be wholly disparate in actuality and (visually) audibly from any previous music form.  Their work was influenced by one thing, but to the naked eye the previous origins may be blurred by the result.  So, similarly, bands that love metal and are influenced highly by it, do not necessarily produce something of that genre; they produce something of their own artistic intention.  If it doesn't fit within the boundaries of one type it is bound to fit in another, but it does not change their influence.  However, the actual product may be very different from that which the artist originally intended, or it may stray from the genre parameters they hoped to achieve, but its a finished work.

I seriously doubt that Picasso and Braque associated working with cubes as an "ism" when they first started.  It was probably more to the effect of "o, this is a cool idea."  However, as time went on multiple people observed the properties and attributes of the art form and dubbed it accordingly; much like your Iommi example MDV.  Then, everything falls in accordingly with a common origin, or it doesn't because its origins don't lie there.  If someone started basing all form in paintings on and around the medium of circles exclusively, could it be said that they are a Cubist (we are talking very literally here)?  Maybe, it certainly appears rather similar; but chances are they were influenced by Picasso or Braque and veered off in a different direction, creating something of a different genre.  There are many variables here, and yes, some things really do defy classification.  And yes, many don't.  Doesn't make it good or bad, it just is.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 04:25:27 AM by opprobrium_9 »
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MDV

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Re: miracle man doing what it's made for: METHUUUUUULZZ
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2008, 10:32:57 AM »
Opp,

The genre classifications stem from an interpretation of a vocal or influential listener, or a cultural convention.

For example - metal - "Sounds like heavy metal falling from the sky" - off hand quip by a journalist listening to led zepelin, who at the time believed they were a blues/rock band.

Rock n' roll - Named for a feeling of grooviness and wanting to dance that it inspired in many at the time.

Blues - named for feeling 'blue'. Psychocromatics is a very interesting field, but we all know that blue is a bit depressed.

Accepting these definitions is nothing more than accepting another persons attempt to subjectively understand the music and relate it to what they already know. You can do that retrospectively too - for example, I think Wagner and Bach are metal as $%&# ;)

Many are local cultural things, and I'm all for studying where the music comes from, and a loose connection with a group of people or location is a trend in music until recently (and the internet, amazon and so on).

However, the foundation of each and every genre name is itself named from a particular interpretation and particluar perspective. Very telling among these is "classical" - do you think mozart was called 'classical' when he was alive? Our differing perspective now changes its classification and genre. Classic rock once occupied the position of modern metal. Blues in the 30s and 40s, rock n' roll in the 50s and 60s and thrash in the 80s all had the same position and similar interpretation (the outlet music for the underdogs -blacks, teens and the working class, in order). You can make other connections and comparisons of this sort, of music as a cultural penomenon that make you question the validity of genre classification, and force you to ask rather what the music means to different people.

Additionally, any musical characteristic you can find in any genre (to just look at it as pure music, as I prefer to do anyway), you can also find exceptions to within the genre and you can find examples of outside the genre. Its interesting to look at the flow of musical ideas between subcultures and evolution of sounds over time, but trying to box them up and label them is futile. You realise this with meshuggah, but I think thats an extreme example. I think that every single song you have ever heard is part of a tapestry, spanning the globe and all history, of interconnections of musical ideas and styles, and that the weave is too complex, and interconnetions too common, especially now, to be able to name and accurately define each one. African drums circles are metal. Blues and jazz can rip and shred. Hip hop can have heavy guitars, and metal can have rapping and flemenco and thrash each make as much use of phrygian and you just end up going in circles trying to navigate the tapestry.   

Noodle is right: if you look closely enough, every song has its own genre and 5000 year history.


lepersmeesa

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Re: miracle man doing what it's made for: METHUUUUUULZZ
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2008, 08:53:57 AM »
Cool clip, drums maybe a little loud to really hear the guitars completely but sounds great.

To the arguement going on about what is and what isn't metal:

Whoever said Despised Icon are metal and Ion Dissonance and Meshuggah arent? I don't understand your point view. You also haven't given Meshuggah a more suitable classification. Im not going to say Meshuggah sound like everything other metal band, but that is why they are a progressive metal band.

As for Despised Icon being metal they have large sections of songs which are completely influenced by hardcore and have "bree" vocals as well as other hardcore tendencies such as beatdowns etc. If someone said Despised Icon were metal thats fine, as long as they accept that Ion Dissonance and Meshuggah are also metal, albeit a different sub genre.

Would Sikth, Tool, Dream Theater, and Opeth not be considered metal?
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Modular1

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Re: miracle man doing what it's made for: METHUUUUUULZZ
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2008, 12:30:10 AM »
nice riff :) i like it :)

FunkyMunky

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Re: miracle man doing what it's made for: METHUUUUUULZZ
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2008, 07:17:01 PM »
Subjectively, I like it. Objectively, I don't really care. MDV's right. Music is music. Sound waves hit our eardrums and fire nerves. The same sound can have a different effect on different people. I find the tune to have great melody and harmony, and it reminds me of really good old thrash. I don't know what all this new stuff sounds like. Call me an old fart, but I prefer lyrics you can understand without a dog for an interpreter. Hetfield and Mustaine, Anthrax, Testament, and yes, Pantera etc. are ace. Just checked out Despised Icon, is this what they call Tantrum vocals? They should just leave them out coz the music rocks without it.

Anyway, great clip Eric, I want to hear more of the same, just get that good SINGER you're after and all will be complete.


Alex

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Re: miracle man doing what it's made for: METHUUUUUULZZ
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2008, 10:50:23 PM »
I don't understand why people argue so much about music styles and especially about this "metalcore" stuff.
If the music is good I don't care what the label is.
BTW I like the new Metallica AND I'm gonna get the new Trivium as well.
Anyway as a musician you should listen to all kind of music and be open for it, it widens your horizon. My 2c.

To the original poster: I really like that clip. I particular like that the guitars sound quite raw despite being a modeller.
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