BOUTIQUE -- or BS?! -- Discussion

[Twinfan]

What I'm trying to convey is, I think the BKP's that I've played are in a league of their own, I don't think any other pickup company makes high output passive pickups that sound quite like the ones Bareknuckle does.

I would agree with this too.  I personally find that BKs strength is in the modern pickups.  The vintage ones are good, but I think there are 'better' ones out there for me.  My opinion of course, and I think Tim and the boys do a great job producing the range that they do  :)  So to say BKs are PAF clones is untrue.  They're an evolution  ;)

I've heard clips of all these posh boutique amps, pedals etc and to me they sound no better than a 'normal' amp. It might be a different story if I were to play them though, would love to give something like a Splawn a go and be proven wrong :)

You should try some other stuff Tom.  I still sound like me whatever I play through, but it's all about the FEEL and how the amp and guitar respond to my playing.  That's the extra bit that the boutique guys can give you.

As a final comment, the spooky 'boutique' tag is all about marketing and getting you to pay an inflated price for something.  On the other hand, there are some great guys out there who are producing evolutions of classic designs without attaching remortgage prices to their products.  Dr Z and MJW amps spring to mind as great examples.

[Doctor X]

I used to buy boutique gear because no major manufacturers made what I wanted.  However, over the last 5 years the big companies have really taken notice of the success of the boutique builders and have started trying to meet the need themselves.  For example, 5 years ago the only way to get a low wattage valve amp was from a boutique builder, while now they're all over the place.  Same thing with tubescreamers, in fact Ibanez are doing that 'handwired' 808.  I recently bought a new MXR 'classic 108' fuzz and it's just as good as any of the (many) boutique fuzz face clones I've tried, and cheaper too. 

[gwEm]

I used to buy boutique gear because no major manufacturers made what I wanted.  However, over the last 5 years the big companies have really taken notice of the success of the boutique builders and have started trying to meet the need themselves.  For example, 5 years ago the only way to get a low wattage valve amp was from a boutique builder, while now they're all over the place.  Same thing with tubescreamers, in fact Ibanez are doing that 'handwired' 808.  I recently bought a new MXR 'classic 108' fuzz and it's just as good as any of the (many) boutique fuzz face clones I've tried, and cheaper too. 

thats true - the korg 'pitchblack' tuner is true bypass now for example, as are many commercial pedals.

also it can be the naffness of products that give them the cool rough sound - the very first marshalls for example

[d1dsj]

Lots of great points and opinions here... but I firmly believe that nostalgia is a big influence on the choices we make now. For example, back in the 80's I had '68 small box Plexi front/ cream back panel that I loved and wished I'd never sold. I have regretted it for so many years I kept looking and looking for another. Last year I had the chance to play and compare my mates '73 metal panel and his mates '67/ '68 small box to my amp. Both amps are in very good condition and all original... no mods etc, and with the '67/'68 the guy even had with him various NOS valves. I have to say that as good as they both sounded, I'm so F'in glad I didn't sell my amp to finance one, it would have been such a disappointment! My nostalgic dreams would have become my nightmare.

Regarding pedals, I don't have many but I don't want anything in there that's going to affect/ change/ dull the sound I've come to love from my amp regardless of the manufacturer! Obviously we buy amps that sound good to us as they are, so I think it's a bigger issue when buying pedals to ensure they don't screw that basic sound up. At the end of the day one mans banger is another mans Rolls.... good job we don't all like the same thing.

[Denim n Leather]

The only comment I will make on the true bypass subject is: an all-true-bypass pedal chain sounds like @ss!! Talk about marketing hype; Just as "pro lifers" attached a negative stigma to what is now called "pro choice" (If you're not pro life, then you MUST be ANTI life)** the people trying to sell us on true bypass came up with the nifty phrase tone suck. You don't want your tone to suck? Then use true bypass! Except, when every pedal is TB, your tone SUCKS!!! PDT_008

Now, to clarify something:

I DID NOT SAY THAT BK ONLY MAKES PAF CLONES!!!! I said IN MY RIG, because that is what I'm using -- Riff Raff, Stormy Monday, VHII, and Black Dog pickups. I think my personal opinion on Tim's pickup range should be well-established at this point! Sheesh ...

End of rant. :)


** Edit: For the record, I am neither "pro life" nor "pro choice". I am anti-stupid!!

[gwEm]

You don't want your tone to suck? Then use true bypass! Except, when every pedal is TB, your tone SUCKS!!! PDT_008

hey man, we're all agreeing with the general thrust of what you're saying in the first post :)

regarding true bypass: i don't have ever that many pedals on my chain - maximum three, usually two (one of these a tuner). i have noticed tone suck with pedals like TS or SD types, or wahs. as a well qualified and experienced electronic engineer, i know that the bypass of these particular pedals are badly designed. i think with the low number of pedals i'm running, seeing a pedal has 'true bypass' feature does give me peace of mind, since its hard to try before you buy. though it is true that its being used more often now as a marketing feature, but not always.

[juansolo]

You don't want your tone to suck? Then use true bypass! Except, when every pedal is TB, your tone SUCKS!!! PDT_008

hey man, we're all agreeing with the general thrust of what you're saying in the first post :)

Yup  PDT_003

[dave_mc]

(a) The only area I can see where playing a replica scores over an actual vintage piece of kit is in the area of reliability, especially if you're gigging (old stuff tends to break).

So, I open it up to you guys --- where do you draw the line? Where does a so-called boutique product hold its own against the original for you, and where do you draw the line/get off the train? Does replicating a classic sound even hold any merit to you, or are you tired of the guitar industry constantly dragging the 1960s around like a millstone and using it to cudgel anything new?

(a) wouldn't price (or even availability) be a bit of a factor too? I mean, i might want a '59 les paul 'burst, but I don't have a spare $500k lying around, and even if I did, I'd be paranoid of buying a fake... :lol:

(b) i haven't really tried any good vintage stuff. I kind of have a mixture of gear- stuff to replicate classic tones, where it just wouldn't sound right if you didn't use something approaching the right gear (for example, if you need a strat tone, a les paul's not going to cut it), but i also buy stuff like superstrats etc., because for a lot of the music i play, they're better, or at least more suited.

regarding boutique versus non-boutique- if i think it's worth the extra money (and i have said extra money :lol: ) I'll pay for it, if not, I won't.

[_tom_]

You should try some other stuff Tom.  I still sound like me whatever I play through, but it's all about the FEEL and how the amp and guitar respond to my playing.  That's the extra bit that the boutique guys can give you.

I guess it would be the same with amps as Bareknuckles, then. I find that BKPs are more responsive and feel nicer to play than other pickups I've tried. The stock epiphones in the Pearl were horrible, no dynamics at all and just felt flat and lifeless. p90s definitely brought it to life :)

The problem with me trying a boutique amp would then be that I would want one and as a student I just cant afford it! I may even have to sell my Blackstar at the minute as I dont think I can manage the whole summer without a job (no one seems to be hiring) and on the remains of a student loan.

[Lew]

Cool thread  8)

Boutique stuff by nature is meant to appeal to people with cash, who generally end up being middle aged + so it's no surprise that alot of it is vintage styled stuff.

But there's a difference imo between a shop that uses for example hand carving a body rather than CNC because they can't afford a CNC machine and the company that handcarves it to use as a bullshiteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee selling point to the clueless. I feel the same about PTP/Turret vs PCB.

There are loads of people paying for guitars that I consider a real rip off, like Gusstavason guitars - I'm sure they are amazing guitars but they first cost 3-4k. Then the hyperbole train got running at a few forums and blatantly fueled by friends of the dealers, at the time they were being sold used at a profit because the demand was so high and then the prices change to reflect it... they now go for 10k upwards.

The same with Fibenare, you can get the most expensive production model in europe (where they're made) for 2k where as in the states people regularly pay 5k (yes,when the exchange rate is near enough even). Not surprisingly both have the same US distributer.

I think it starts getting grey when we start discussing companies like Suhr and Splawn rather than Gusttavson and Tworock because I think they put out a great product at an amazing price. You'd be paying through the nose to get a Fender comparable to Suhr quality and I imagine the same goes for Marshall and Splawn.

I'm not buying highend/boutique gear because I think it sounds better than a guitar at 1k, in-fact I really don't think it does. Tone is so subjective and down to the player imo. I'm paying for the feel (build quality and design) of the guitar.

Edit: The anti high end gear argument is often 'Jeff Beck doesn't use this or that expensive gear etc...' and it's a silly argument at best because despite what some of the companies will tell you in the sales cr@p - the players aren't playing off the shelf guitars, Jeff Becks number 1 for example has pickups made by Suhr whilst he was at Fender and will be fretted/set-up by the best around. Attention to detail that you won't get on a 'normal' Fender, but you would from a normal Anderson etc...

[dave_mc]

just read the rest of the thread now...

So if you not bothered about aesthetics so much you can get great sounding, great value gear outside the boutique world.  But if you want to pay £500 on a tubescreamer clone I say go for it, each to their own!

agreed. i just want something which sounds good and plays well. I don't care what badge is on it.

I agree about true bypass, too. with any more than a couple of pedals (heck, i can hear the difference with one!), you're probably going to want a buffer in there somewhere. granted some buffers in cheaper pedals sometimes aren't all that great, but you could always get a good quality, standalone one if you cared that much.

[jpfamps]

A lot of boutique gear, including many BKP offerings, have nothing to to with vintage originals. I've never hear a vintage 'bucker that sounded like a ceramic warpig, and I don't think that is what Tim was going for when he created the 'pig.

Regardless, whooever said "there is a lot of bollocks and perceived value" in a lot of boutique stuff speaks truth. People with more money than talent (ME), hoping that some magical pickup/tailpiece/guitar/cable/string will transform them into the guitar hero of their youth.

Les Paul people are particularly prone to this fallacy and to the "more money spent = better TONE" fallacy. For some reason, the word "tone" is always spelled in caps ("TONE") when discussing the subject with middle-aged Les Paul people. And I like Les Pauls.

I've more money than talent too.

And I don't have very much money.........

[jpfamps]

Firstly, other than — love it or loathe it — DSP, most of the major innovations in the electric guitar/ amp technology were done by the 60s, and pedal technology by the end of the 70s.

Most "innovation" since then has been directed at either fine tuning designs, or by making it cheaper.

Obviously as gear evolves and we have more knowledge any advancements, such as they are, become increasingly marginal.

What's good about the current market is that there is a huge variety of great gear out that at a range of prices.

When I started out the cheapest "Woolworths" electric guitar was about £100 (which was worth a lot more than it is now!!) and was virtually unplayable.

[Prawnik]

You make a good point gwEm, it's all about the emotion.  As musicians, we live off our muses.  That may be a person who inspires lyrics, or a piece of gear that inspires you to play a certain way.  I certainly play a LOT better when things are just 'right' with my rig and I'm in the right mood.

We're a fickle bunch aren't we?  :lol:

I dunno. The best guitarists I have met or heard (LA and NYC studio musicians, Russian and Polish jazz fiends) are pretty indifferent to their gear.

Just as I can make it all sound bad, they can make it all sound good.

I've more money than talent too.

And I don't have very much money.........

You took the words out of my mouth.

One thing I will say for boutique clones of vintage gear (and I build them myself) is that they can be made much more consistent than the "real" thing. It is also possible to make vintage combinations or options that are hard or impossible to come by without hacking up classic gear.

For instance, a '69 hardtail Strat, but with a D-sized neck and a veneer maple board. You could have ordered this combination from Fender in early 1969. It was theoretically possible by checking off the right sequence of options at that time.

Good luck finding one.

[FELINEGUITARS]

** Edit: For the record, I am neither "pro life" nor "pro choice". I am anti-stupid!!

I'm pro-fret-dress myself!