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Author Topic: This restores my faith in the legal system  (Read 24912 times)

MDV

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2009, 03:38:09 PM »
reductio ad absurdum

thats the one!

thanks

Not the same thing as a strawman, per se, I believe. It is A strawman argument, but its a certain kind. A strawman being any kind of arguing with a point that youve basically fabricated yourself that isnt the real situation.

You arent pointing out a logical flaw, at all. Youre acting with an overgrown sense of entitlement to opinion. Yours is not equally valid all the time. Guitars and giutar tones, yeah, court verdicts, no. 

Sifu,
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 03:43:36 PM by MDV »

Dmoney

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2009, 03:57:01 PM »
He said that without direct first hand experience you cannot make a judgement, which is a flawed position.

I thought he meant that you can't make an accuarate judgement if you don't have all the facts. I don't know what was said in court, and i find the video inconclusive. The court is there to try and get the facts, or place them in front of a jury so they can make an educated decision. I think anyone could dispute the decision, but unless they had all the facts, or had been present in court to witness how those facts where presented or argued against, you don't have the full picture. not only of what was meant to happen in the club, but also what arguments swayed the jury.

MDV

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2009, 04:03:42 PM »
He said that without direct first hand experience you cannot make a judgement, which is a flawed position.

I thought he meant that you can't make an accuarate judgement if you don't have all the facts. I don't know what was said in court, and i find the video inconclusive. The court is there to try and get the facts, or place them in front of a jury so they can make an educated decision. I think anyone could dispute the decision, but unless they had all the facts, or had been present in court to witness how those facts where presented or argued against, you don't have the full picture. not only of what was meant to happen in the club, but also what arguments swayed the jury.

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mikeluke

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2009, 04:06:23 PM »
I with Philly on this one - facts or no facts - it just looks very odd that his 6 mates plead guilty, whereas Stevie G gets off with it....

Personally I'd have banged him up for 6 months just to give Benitez something else to grizzle about...

 :lol:

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Dmoney

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2009, 04:23:23 PM »
I with Philly on this one - facts or no facts - it just looks very odd that his 6 mates plead guilty, whereas Stevie G gets off with it....

also true, would you get 6 months? or a fine? i doubt you'd get anything really. if you can kill someone for no reason and get 6 years (out in 3) then a punch in the face must only be worth 5mins in the clink. (and yes, i know of people who have been sentenced like that for killing someone i know)

Sifu Ben

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2009, 04:24:03 PM »
Must apologise for my earlier crankiness, just come off nights :( Been for a walk in the sunshine with the wife and feel much better now :)
MDV, if that's what you meant to say, then that's all well and good. It's a reasonable position, however, what we do know leads many of us to feel negatively towards the outcome, and we are entitled to air those feelings and discuss them.
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38thBeatle

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2009, 06:11:45 PM »
You learn so much on this forum.
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Philly Q

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2009, 07:02:46 PM »
I with Philly on this one - facts or no facts - it just looks very odd that his 6 mates plead guilty, whereas Stevie G gets off with it....

also true, would you get 6 months? or a fine? i doubt you'd get anything really. if you can kill someone for no reason and get 6 years (out in 3) then a punch in the face must only be worth 5mins in the clink. (and yes, i know of people who have been sentenced like that for killing someone i know)

Well, it'll be interesting to see what sentences the Gerro-mates actually get.  Apparently it could be up to 3 years, but I'd be very surprised if that happens!
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Sifu Ben

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2009, 07:38:25 PM »


You arent pointing out a logical flaw, at all. Youre acting with an overgrown sense of entitlement to opinion. Yours is not equally valid all the time. Guitars and giutar tones, yeah, court verdicts, no. 

Sifu,
Wow, way to be condescending and offensive  :roll:
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MDV

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2009, 07:57:10 PM »


You arent pointing out a logical flaw, at all. Youre acting with an overgrown sense of entitlement to opinion. Yours is not equally valid all the time. Guitars and giutar tones, yeah, court verdicts, no. 

Sifu,
Wow, way to be condescending and offensive  :roll:

Perhaps I didnt make myself clear - NONE of our opinions are as valid as the jury members and judge that saw as complete a representation of the events as is possible to give. From what I know of police procedure at the very least that will be FAR more than has been released in the press, and therefore what we know.

If you have difficulty accepting that other peoples viewpoints can be more informed and valid than yours and consider being reminded of that (which is true of all of us) to be condescending and offensive, then I suggest you spend less time in all-opinions-are-equal land (aka the internet) because few parts of reality work like that. 

Afghan Dave

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2009, 08:19:27 PM »
MDV - Please could you just leave this now as we've seen it all before and it's getting tedious.

It seems like vanity and doesn't help or improve anything.

"There's more knowledge on these boards than there are necks under PhillyQ's bed"

MDV

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2009, 08:29:50 PM »
It would be vanity if I claimed to be in any priveleged position with regard knowledge of the trial. I've stressed my ignorance (and everyone elses) of the details of it, hows that vanity?

But whatever, I have no horse in this race. Our opinion-equality culture pisses me off is all; I wish people would at least ackowledge how much they dont know before they run their mouths.

Sifu Ben

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2009, 10:28:01 PM »
A) maybe you shouldn't be on DISCUSSION forums then
B) Maybe you shouldn't criticise others when you've OPENLY ACKNOWLEDGED that you were unfamiliar with the subject being discussed
C) You should carefully read what you write before you post it, because what you appear to think you've said is very often not what you've said
 The person who's become offensive when others have challenged their viewpoint in this discussion has been YOU. You make absolute statements and then when people dispute that statement smear them and make out that you said something more reasonable. This is not big, not clever, and not conducive to discussion.
 I am perfectly willing to respect other viewpoints (indeed I said that in my last post but one), but if you're not willing to DISCUSS it makes things very difficult.
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MDV

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2009, 10:37:08 PM »
MDV, what on earth can we not know? He was drunk, returned to the situation rather than walked away, without provocation and having CLEARLY seen his friend hit him first pulled his head down and repeatedly struck him in the face, made no attempt to escape the situation and had to be restrained from attacking further.
Exactly how does this constitute reasonable force used in self defence?
This is yet another case of one rule for us and another for them. Celebrity is the new aristocracy  :shock:

Its you that came in here with an absolute viewpoint, distiled from news reports and preconceptions and directed at me.

As to the rest, it seems that youre just persistently misunderstanding or misrepresenting my stance (dmoney got it and stated it well; read his post again, perhaps?).

Since you've focussed on me rather than the topic then perhaps you'd like to continue this via PM and stop polluting the board with what is rather distastfully becoming a personal dispute?

As far as my part goes - I've said all I'm going to say on the trial, which is that

A: its trivial.
B: We arent in a position to criticise the verdict.

Sifu Ben

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Re: This restores my faith in the legal system
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2009, 10:49:40 PM »
I generally avoid absolutes, I've stated opinions and asked questions. Indeed, there is only one real statement (there are facts, but facts can be disputed) in the post you've quoted is the last line, which is clearly an opinion, not an absolute, and therefore open for discussion.
As opposed to
Quote
Alright, lets cut to the chase - unless you were in the bar watching what happened (and listening to it) or in the court for the trial you cant possibly cast a judgment on it. That clear enough?
which leaves nothing to discuss except the logic of the statement (and looking at it again, maybe the internal consistency of the statement, but heh). It is also delivered in a highly confrontational style. I'm sorry if it offends you that someone would dare to question you, but again, it is a discussion board, a place to discuss, and one of the things that make discussion forums work is that people respect other people's right to opinions that aren't inherently offensive. If we can't accept that then we may as well all pack up and go home.
 And anyway, what is so wrong with questionning a jury's decision? They're fallable humans, and on occasion get things wrong>
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