Lisbon Treaty

[Ratrod]

I'm not surprised the BNP gets so much support.

It's the pendulum effect. The further it's going to the left the further it will swing back to the right.

[HTH AMPS]

I occasionally get BNP flyers through the door and now go to the door each time I hear anything coming through so I can give the moron posting those flyers a piece of my mind and tell them where to shove their flyer.

The state of the Labour party is a real shame, people are looking at the opposition as an alternative, but think of all the good things Labour have done which would never happen under the tories:

* minimum wage - you can laugh, but I remember the average wage for student-jobs before this and it was no joke (being a student at the time)
* investment in eduction - the schools where I live were crumbling when I left in 2000 under the tories, now we have two schools in a 5 mile radius that have been rebuilt and offer facilities more in line with a good uni.
* investment in the NHS - tories fundamentally don't believe in the NHS and I believe we'd see further privatisation.
* the civil partnership act - can you imagine the tories putting this before the house for consideration? (me neither)
* better pensions, winter fuel allowance, free public travel for pensioners

[Philly Q]

I'm not surprised the BNP gets so much support.

It's the pendulum effect. The further it's going to the left the further it will swing back to the right.

But we haven't been anywhere near the left since the mid '70s.  We've been wobbling back and forth around the centre for decades.

I think it's more to do with the state of the economy and a general disenchantment with the mainstream parties because none of them seem to represent "an alternative".

[Afghan Dave]

I occasionally get BNP flyers through the door and now go to the door each time I hear anything coming through so I can give the moron posting those flyers a piece of my mind and tell them where to shove their flyer.

The state of the Labour party is a real shame, people are looking at the opposition as an alternative, but think of all the good things Labour have done which would never happen under the tories:

* minimum wage - you can laugh, but I remember the average wage for student-jobs before this and it was no joke (being a student at the time)
* investment in eduction - the schools where I live were crumbling when I left in 2000 under the tories, now we have two schools in a 5 mile radius that have been rebuilt and offer facilities more in line with a good uni.
* investment in the NHS - tories fundamentally don't believe in the NHS and I believe we'd see further privatisation.
* the civil partnership act - can you imagine the tories putting this before the house for consideration? (me neither)
* better pensions, winter fuel allowance, free public travel for pensioners

And that if superficially true benefits who..  :?

The wealth gap has never been higher and social mobility is a thing of the past - all the labour party ministers benefited from free University education but happily pulled up the ladder.

Investment in education infrastructure via PFI which means the private sector own all the assets and the taxpayer rents these back and never owns them at massive cost.

The standard of basic literacy has dropped with more children falling through the net. They can't even read.

Foxhunting and civil partnership legislation bulldozed through parliament for minority concerns but no debate on European Union or ID cards despite being manifesto promises.

don't even make me start on the pensions crisis and fuel poverty....

[dave_mc]

And that if superficially true benefits who..  :?

The wealth gap has never been higher and social mobility is a thing of the past - all the labour party ministers benefited from free University education but happily pulled up the ladder.

Investment in education infrastructure via PFI which means the private sector own all the assets and the taxpayer rents these back and never owns them at massive cost.

The standard of basic literacy has dropped with more children falling through the net. They can't even read.

Foxhunting and civil partnership legislation bulldozed through parliament for minority concerns but no debate on European Union or ID cards despite being manifesto promises.

don't even make me start on the pensions crisis and fuel poverty....

agreed. those things hth listed were good (on the surface, anyway, if you don't dig too deep), and i agree that it's doubtful the tories would have pushed them through, but they've done a lot of harm too.

[Dmoney]

i think it takes a special kind of person to want to be a politician and those able to get real far in that world have to shape themselves accordingly as situations arise. I don't class them as normal people. i think they mostly have something fundamentally sinister about them, more so in the upper echelons. I can't swallow the line that most politicians just want to selflessly serve the people in their constituency or the country as a whole. 

[dave_mc]

agreed. :lol: though i think plato maybe got there first.

[Dmoney]

agreed. :lol: though i think plato maybe got there first.

i know ef all about plato. i aint that well read or cultured. i hear he's a solid bro though

[Ratrod]

agreed. :lol: though i think plato maybe got there first.

i know ef all about plato. i aint that well read or cultured. i hear he's a solid bro though

A large percentage of British kids probably think Plato is a game character.

[Dmoney]

true.
I know who he is. I just didnt know what i said related to him in any way.
i hope you're not calling me a kid and suggesting i'm ignorant?
i feel i have to stick up from British kids, or anyone in British schools. obviously we have some big problems with that age group in relation to the rest of europe but i don't always think that it's their own fault.

[Afghan Dave]

There are lots of very intelligent kids in this country who present themselves as F**k shite stupid....

Blame the education system / fashion/ absent parents - the result is the same - It's shameful.

I don't blame them unless they choose to stay that way & have babies.  :x

[Philly Q]

There are lots of very intelligent kids in this country who present themselves as F**k shitee stupid....

Blame the education system / fashion/ absent parents - the result is the same - It's shameful.

I don't blame them unless they choose to stay that way & have babies.  :x

Unfortunately they have babies while they still are that way....

[Afghan Dave]

I talk with loads of young adults and the disparity between those who have role models who display a modicum of eloquence, education & responsibility is frightening.

For 99% of kids it's not what your born with but what you value...

Many kids don't ever get the chance to be engaged in a conversation because no one is around.

Just a PS3 or Wii.

F**king upper middle class kids acting like "street thugs" are the worst - they make me sick....
Daddy will pay for their education then get them a job in the city later but for now it just adds to the number of f**king morons I have to deal with.

I do want to cry sometimes when I think how hard it is now for a young and intelligent person to get an opportunity in this country.

It has not been this hard to move upward socially or economically since the 19th century.

The "new labour project" has abused more children than all the paedophiles on the register ever could.

[Philly Q]

I wonder if the UK really is worse than other countries in this respect?

In a way, it would be comforting to think we're no worse than anywhere else.... although that would mean the whole world is $%&#ed.

If there are other countries who are "getting it right", we really need to do whatever we can to learn from them.



Edit:  Actually, I'd like to ask Ratrod:  I know your comment wasn't aimed at Dmoney personally, but is there a perception in Holland that British kids are particularly ignorant and/or badly educated? 

I'm not trying to be confrontational or inflammatory, just curious.

[Andrew W]

I wonder if the UK really is worse than other countries in this respect?

Edit:  Actually, I'd like to ask Ratrod:  I know your comment wasn't aimed at Dmoney personally, but is there a perception in Holland that British kids are particularly ignorant and/or badly educated? 

I'm not trying to be confrontational or inflammatory, just curious.

The main experience I have in this is when I give guest lectures at universities.  The courses I lecture to tend to be very multi-national and I've asked the question you ask to the lecturers who say there is a big difference.  One course head said that he noticed the biggest difference in British kids' attitudes came from those who'd been through the national curriculum for their whole school life.  His theory was that because the kids just get tested and tested on easy to mark questions that then feed into league tables that lead to funding levels, teachers had little option other than to simply teach kids to pass these tests rather than teaching them to actually think.  He said it took a year of the degree course to start to get the British students to break this narrow focus on grades and testing and to actually develop a bit.  He said that students from the Scottish education system or the rest of Europe did not suffer in this way.

I feel very sorry for children going through the state education system today, I don't think that they're deliberately ignorant or that they're choosing to be disinterested in their education it just seems to be that their whole education experience is based on making sure that some boxes gets ticked in Whitehall so that the school will get next year's funding. 

All of this is not to say that there aren't exceptions and that there aren't schools who rise above this and actually educate their students but I do think that, countrywide, the national curriculum has done terrible damage to generations of British children and young adults.

My two pence based on what I see when I visit universities and on the people I get at work straight from college.