How do you record?

[MDV]

I'm still using modellors - VOX Tonelab LE mainly - I find it's close enough for my purposes, a LOT easier, and there's no way I can record a valve amp here (environment not quiet enough, and the amp's to bluddy loud for everyone else!).

Having said that, I've just started playing through an amp again - got me one of those Vox AC4TV beasties. It's gorgeous, but still too damn loud, even on the 1/4 watt setting - although I am having some fun with it at the moment during the day while I'm off work and the neighbours aren't :D

One thing I've noticed on the "valve amp versus modellor" thing over the last couple of days is that, for me personally, it's not about whether one produces a better or more authentic tone - I can get that out of either, enough to suit my purposes anyway. It's more about how it makes me feel while I'm playing, and how it affects how I play. The valve amp up and cooking is a far more satisfying experience as a player, it definitely "responds" differently and takes a slightly different set of playing skills to obtain the same effect.

The VERY interesting thing I've discovered is when I've been playing the valve amp for a few hours and then switch back to the modellor and studio speakers - I find my playing has "improved" and the tones coming out of the modellor sound more "authentic" to me...

I know I'm not going to convince many/some of you of this (!), same as no-one's gonna convince me anymore that a well mic'd valve amp in a decent space will always be better... but I just thought I'd chuck it in the mix :D

Johnny - I was seriously tempted by the Axe FX a while back, but the GAS has worn off (and I'm not doing enough to justify spending that much at the moment...). I'd recommend, if you've not tried modelling that much yet, dipping a toe in with something cheaper (eg the Tonelab).

Truth!

I (still) think the TLLE is the best modeller going, especially for lower gain sounds (some clean stuff I recorded on it was accused by a sound engineer (a proper one that works in a big ass studio that makes big ass albums) of being 'album quality')

But, yes, the tone has to feel right to play as much as sound right to the ears. Well stated.

P.S. Most axe fx clips I hear sound like polystyrene; whats the big deal?

[AndyR]

I think I've heard some of Hunter's (Axe FX clips) that started getting me interested.

The thing is though, one man's "hey wow" is the other man's "jeez, did he really buy that?" :lol:

As you'll know, the secret of these modelling beasts is patience and listening. Get something you half like, save it and use it for a while. Take a copy and fiddle with it some more. Learn something on a another patch with a different amp, then take another copy of your first patch and see if that lesson applies here as well... quite often the biggest lessons seem to be "less-is-more", but sometimes you've even got to unlearn that...

From my experiences with the POD 2, the POD XT, and now the Tonelab LE, I'm fairly certain that the Axe would give more, and I probably could improve on what I get so far... but is it worth the several times more pricetag, and the extra time learning/fiddling? I reached the conclusion that the answer's no for me at the moment :lol:

Meanwhile, since my last post, the courier has arrived with Andrew's xmas pressie to hisself - a Danelectro Cool Cat CTO-1 (Transparent Overdrive) to go into the front of the AC4TV... oh yeah :D, now I understand what all the pedal-freaks are on about :lol:

I went for cheap and cheerful, checked out some threads here, and followed links to youtube demos... then when I tried to buy one, I was getting the impression they're about to get discontinued - so I ordered one quick when I found one yesterday.... So far, very happy - volume levels right down (when necessary) and pleasant crunchiness and strat bite abounds... still wouldn't use it for recording (might give it a try though), but it's great for dancing around the living room being Rory Gallagher :lol:

[JDC]

P.S. Most axe fx clips I hear sound like polystyrene; whats the big deal?

I think part of the reason is you got all your fancy gear and so you've got better ears/frame of reference than folk like me

kind of in the same way my mate's lack of tube amp experience means he's got no frame of reference and so asks me about gear then don't listen and buys a metal zone to plug into his valvetronix (now he's selling the pedal a month later and getting a satch overdrive)

[_tom_]

Most of the metal clips I've heard from the AxeFX sound awesome. Low-medium gain aren't bad but not as good as a proper valve amp from what I've heard.

I do want to try one though, since mic'ing an amp is so much hassle to get right!

[Johnny Mac]

The in studio uses are where it does well, plus the effects are supposed to be top notch too. It would be a wonderful thing to have  :D

[MDV]

P.S. Most axe fx clips I hear sound like polystyrene; whats the big deal?

I think part of the reason is you got all your fancy gear and so you've got better ears/frame of reference than folk like me

kind of in the same way my mate's lack of tube amp experience means he's got no frame of reference and so asks me about gear then don't listen and buys a metal zone to plug into his valvetronix (now he's selling the pedal a month later and getting a satch overdrive)

Theres nothing special about my ears or gear.

I've heard clips that sound *good*, and clips that sound better than anything I've made; I just dont hear this throwawayyourvalveampsandrackgear thing that people keep harping on about.

For perspective on the matter, I recently heard a clip of a peavey vypyr line out with impulses on it - it soundd better than anything I've heard from an axe FX. (and made me revisit my own vypyr, which I keep in the lounge as a lowly practice amp for while I'm doing stuff like this :lol:)

[MDV]

Which reminds me - the vast majority of the quality of a recording rests in the hands, mind, ears, experience and resourcefulness of the Audio Engineer in question. To say that I'm a mediocre AE would be somewhere between overly charitable and laughable, fireface 800 and adam monitors or not.

[Johnny Mac]

I'd never chop off my Koch for a modeller Mark!  :lol: I've had it 4.5 years and it still amazes me.

There's so much to recording as you know only too well. If I can't record my Koch it all it's glory then I will just have to compromise. You can always record everything but the guitars and use a facility that allows for the holy grail of a kranked valve amp if its the only thing that works. I love the response of valve amps too and can't think of anything that can do it as well.
Some of Hunters clips sounded really good to my ears. Its a hobby that gets me frustrated at times too as we just want it to be as good as it can possibly be. Recording Metal is harder as there are so many harmonics going on with a  high gain tone. I've gone clean to low gain this year. Must be a sign of middle age as It was always gain on 10 for me years ago. So if some clever yanks want to program algorithms or however they do it that makes things easier then embrace the new! Technology being what it is in 5 years, well who knows... Merry Christmas!  :D

[MDV]

But of course not, you need the koch, it has a much better feel and is more intuitive to use than a modeller.

Metal should be recorded at lower gain, and I pay stupid OCD amounts of attention to the voicing of the gain, note articulation and gain structure used (pre, power, any additional distortion or gain having devices and mic pre gain). Its very difficult indeed to get a good metal sound. Clean is much easier to get something at least passable much faster. More usable results are generally found with lower gain levels, in my experience.

In a few years no doubt there will be superb amp modellers. I dont think the technology is a problem though (and this is little pet hate of mine) because 'modellers' are just computers. They dont have a sound of their own any more than your PC does. Its the code they run that gives the sound. Hooking up a modeller to a pc is just basically running a VST on a seperate CPU. As PCs get faster, people will no doubt code more complex and realistic VSTs, and thats what I'd keep my eye on more than anything!

And merry christmas!

[JDC]

mark I don't remember you getting a vypyr! how's it compare to the valvetronix and the HT5 now you've tried all 3?

[MDV]

You wouldnt, I didnt anounce it to the world :lol:

more flexible than the HT5, less than the VTXL/VT (in tonal voicings available, the vypryr has more options but they sound much more similar to each other)

Its a bitch to dial in, actually. Clangy, grating high end and boomy dull low end are both easily attainable with a slight movement of the stupid light up dials. It CAN sound pretty good, but it doesnt sound as good as the VTXL at all.

The HT5 is a different animal altogether. I liked it considerably more in person than in the various clips kicking round, but it lacks much life, attack and depth to the sound. Not that I expect it to be an Engl or Deizel but it was pretty flat sounding. Not offensive though; I'd be perfectly happy to use one as a practice amp but it didnt do anything special imo. Doesnt have that much gain on tap and isnt very aggressively voiced. Its like a little,  darker tighter smoother JCM900

I Like the VTXL the best, on the 'damaged' channel, no effects, EQ to taste/placement in room.

[MDV]

My home studio setup, inc micing and shielding and stuff. I call it The Forge, cos it makes metal.



Listening and monitoring position and general music throne area.



Studio emergency equipment (on the wall you cant see behind the guitars)



Its rather embarrasing to me that many people do much better with much less, but hey we're all learning, right?

[Johnny Mac]

Looks impressive Mark! So how's it all going in general?

I still have my cash for new Mac and Motu in the bank. I know once I get stuck into a load of new equipment I'll get new problems to over come! I hate them I just want to come up with ideas and make them work :lol:

[MDV]

Pretty well. Still way too much to learn. Theres a track in players atm recorded with all that gubbins (which is really very little gubbins and rather ghetto in the grand scheme, but its what I got - see sig!) if you want to *hear* how its going :D

About to embark on recording some of the better local guitarists for the experience, and because I hope to be able to record demos for people, or just help them get some tracks down for their own satisfaction (which is all I really do) for some appropriate hourly rate and would like to have some stuff I recorded 'out there' and some people with good things to say when I do so

....but, despite being a better engineer than most of the guys that charge for it round here (and I am NOT a good audio engineer, they're just inept) I want to know that I can handle at least most of what I'll encounter and do a good job first, so its all learning and experimenting with techniques at the moment.

[Johnny Mac]

Pretty well. Still way too much to learn. Theres a track in players atm recorded with all that gubbins (which is really very little gubbins and rather ghetto in the grand scheme, but its what I got - see sig!) if you want to *hear* how its going :D

About to embark on recording some of the better local guitarists for the experience, and because I hope to be able to record demos for people, or just help them get some tracks down for their own satisfaction (which is all I really do) for some appropriate hourly rate and would like to have some stuff I recorded 'out there' and some people with good things to say when I do so

....but, despite being a better engineer than most of the guys that charge for it round here (and I am NOT a good audio engineer, they're just inept) I want to know that I can handle at least most of what I'll encounter and do a good job first, so its all learning and experimenting with techniques at the moment.

I'll give that track ago in the morning. No work for me tomorrow so I'll run a line out the laptop into my stereo with a big pair of Tannoys attached to it and turn it up loud! I'll be bugging you for tips soon  :lol:

I want to record some others too for the experience. I'll have to get my finger out and get the stuff I want and learn more. I want to get the bass player I rehearse with to do some stuff as he is brilliant.

Do you refer much to the Guerilla home studio book much?