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Author Topic: Panorama - Filesharing  (Read 14943 times)

nfe

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Panorama - Filesharing
« on: March 15, 2010, 08:42:54 PM »
Anyone watching this on BBC1 just now?

Jo Whiley presenting a programme about filesharing and a new government plan to, in theory, restrict and/or ban households internet access.

Thus far, unsurprisingly with it being presented by a BBC radio and television presenter, has been enormously biased in favour of anti-downloading lobbyists with only Dave Stewart and Billy Bragg getting their voices of dissent in for about ten seconds between them.

nfe

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2010, 08:51:42 PM »
Now we're getting a little more sense with the real numbers, especially that on average, people who download a lot of music illegally also spend twice as much money on music per year than those who don't download illegally.

Also, I can't help but notice that all the young artists huffing about illegal downloads are the ones who seem to believe they're only a successful musician if they're inordinately wealthy.

EDIT: Furthermore, this singer from Scouting For Girls is laughably clueless.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 08:58:57 PM by nfe »

Plexi Ken

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2010, 10:08:10 PM »
IMO, there are pro's and con's on both sides of the argument but the idea that 'taking legal action against your fan-base' is a good, long-term business model has little credibility. 20 years ago (when I was trying to 'make it big'), if someone told me "give your music away for free and make money from touring, merchandise, endorsements, etc.", I would have though that was just fine.

Doesn't the majority of money from music sales go to the label, not the artist? Is the Music Industry protecting Performers or themselves?

Even though I have reservations about downloading (I don't do it) I suspect it's impossible to stop. Time to start living with it, rather than commanding the sea to turn.
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dave_mc

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2010, 10:32:31 PM »
i meant to watch that. with any luck it'll be on again, they normally repeat it.

i always love (:roll: ) the music industry's specious claim that all music illegally downloaded is lost revenue (I assume it's in the program somewhere). People steal because they don't want to pay for it; a lot of those illegally downloaded, were they prevented from doing so, would just not buy the music and do without.

and also how a lot of it seems to be a power grab by the record companies.

shobet

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2010, 11:13:46 PM »
What worries me more is what's not being talked about, monitoring of your network traffic and who decides what you can or can not pass along your wires.
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MDV

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2010, 11:27:17 PM »
I'll see if the shows up on pirate bay later.

Jonny

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 03:12:05 AM »
Furthermore, this singer from Scouting For Girls is laughably clueless.
I concur.
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horsehead

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2010, 05:42:24 AM »
I'll see if the shows up on pirate bay later.

Nice
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JDC

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2010, 07:36:52 AM »
going to watch it on iplayer later, freetards will always find a way, using DPI to monitor people's bandwidth isn't much use if everyone starts using encryption by default, the other way is for copyright holders to monitor trackers, but not much use if the tracker is private or if IP blocklists actually work


dave_mc

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2010, 06:52:11 PM »
I'll see if the shows up on pirate bay later.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

MDV

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2010, 06:59:50 PM »
Curiously devoid of any actual debate about filesharing itself - ir proceeds from the (erroneous) assumption that its wrong, and then gets people that (think they) depend on huge record sales (to keep their bank balance in or above the 7 figure level) to promise the death of music itself if P2P doesnt stop, and plonks some kids and students infront of a camera and asks them leading questions to film the guilty looks they're led to have.

No debate. No one makes the argument that it is in fact not stealing in more than a forgetable offhand comment. Dave, yes, the 'lost revenue' argument featured heavily, and it wasnt properly questioned either.

The only counter-points made, in my opinion, were those that gave credence to the overaching assumption, drive and motivation for the whole thing - that music is the money that music makes. NO! Creativity will be killed off if major record labels arent major and flush. BOLLOCKS. Creativity was around LONG before record labels, and will be around long after they're gone, which shouldnt be long now. But its OK, because illegal downloaders spend more on music. $%&# off. Yeah its true, but it falls very much in the 'placates the people that think music is all about money' camp.

Record Exec: This is wong!
Guy in street: No it isnt
RE: Ah, but its not making money!
GiS: But the people that do it make you more money, its actually good marketing.

= avoiding the debate about the ethics of it and supplanting it with support for 'whatever makes more money is best'. Its a late-game card to be played after real arguments have shown them the precipice, as a consolation prize that lets everyone go away happy.

Reality.

Its not a problem that conventional copyright law and media distribution businesses are designed to handle. They're made to handle stuff, first and foremost - the exchange of a physical object for some money. Copyright laws are vestigial systems designed to hold sway over the sale of copied material as though one were a mini-distributor. Niether can apply here.

Its not theft because nothing is taken. Its copied. Its an inferior copy at that. No one lost anything.

It does fall under copyright, but thats using the letter of copyright to defeat the spirit of copyright. When it was for sale of an object that you were unauthorised to sell, then fine. As is, its not so clear. Are you a 'distributor' if you seed a torrent? I say no.

Lost revenue. Pull the other one. "They're stealing money we never made, because we never made it!" I think not. The equivalent would ford going round trying to stop people from driving if they bought a second hand ford, because that means that ford didnt sell a new ford. Any potential customer is culpable for a businesses diminishing revenue because they should be buying things that they arent. So, record companies must be kept afloat, and we must be made to do so at the cost of our civil liberties. I dont recall such an argument so transparently detached from reality ever gaining so much credence since intelligent design won over some rednecks in the bible belt.

Things not talked about enough
- You want to monitor the people of the UKs internet usage to WHAT degree to protect the profit of a vestigial industry now?
- 'The big machine' is in all ways a dinosaur, looking up at a funny light, getting bigger in the sky
- The reason for that us upstart little gits (many of whom can be found on these very boards) can now record good to great quality music for very, very little money, and even do it themselves if they have the getupandgo to learn how
- The 'big machine' that backs the spread and growth of modern music is now the internet itself. Anyone with a couple of grand in gear and a conneciton can throw that they have out here and whats gonna float will float, wont wont will sink. We no longer need distribution of a physical media to make and spread music, and thats what record labels were needed for
- Yeah, the highest quality is still made in very expensive studios, but studios =/= labels. Most studios make most of their money recording indie bands anyway.
- Business is business. You supply what theres demand for and you should be fine. If you get undercut or people dont want you any more, tough tits, you adapt or go out of business. This proposed law is nothing other than government protection of business.

The only point of significance stressed to a satisfactory degree was that the proposed measures and methods in the bill are indeed an exercise in futility.

MDV

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2010, 07:04:33 PM »
Oh, and fwiw I only very rarely download music now, will not pay for downloads on basic principle, and buy CDs because I like flac much better than MP3. I used to download a lot when my means couldnt keep up with my musical requirements, but I dont remember the last time I downloaded something I didnt buy as well, and I normally only download after placing the pre-order. The last time I got some CDs I spent well over that average 'illegal downloaders yearly amount' sum in the mid £70, and I do that a few times a year, with a one or two CDs at a time to snack on in between. So my objections are not rationalisations (to circumvent anyone that would say that)

Aside from anything else, I have a good CD player and like to use it. 2 good CD players, actually. Which reminds me, no one NOT ONE person even alluded to the lower quality of MP3s in download.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 07:07:03 PM by MDV »

dave_mc

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2010, 07:24:29 PM »
nice post, mark. :) i reckon a good analogy for the record industry might be typewriter manufacturers... did they get to ban PCs? heck, the record industry has previous form in this, didn't they try to ban cassettes? :roll: plus now with youtube I can actually hear the stuff before I buy it- little chance of that before the internet came along (certainly with the stuff I listen to).

needless to say, the record industry isn't really the good guy here- most of the stuff the record companies push is shitee. not to mention the rampant misogyny regarding most female stars.

maverickf1jockey

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2010, 07:34:44 PM »
I totally agree with you, MDV but I thought I might put my own spin on it.

There is a difference between the different things that are torrented, though.

For music there is a net gain for the musician as they ultimately sell several more records (if they have any sense this would be direct so that they could keep the best part of the money for themselves rather than have the middle-man forcibly take it from them with a crippling contract clause) and will have virtually free marketing for live performance; look at Gwem's tour diary thread, this would not have been possible for such a fringe genre to get their music out there before free downloads became freely available.
So the argument that artists wouldn't be able to 'afford' to be creative in the same way doesn't hold water and the only ones to lose out are the record companies and the millionnaires who live like kings off the back of their royalties cheques.

With television it's somewhat of a grey area given that not all television is commercial; if one has a paid TV license what is to stop them recording/filesharing their favourite programmes, barring the recent expansion of the BBC's own DVD video releases.
In theory they have already paid for the programme but it does tread on the toes of the distribution company.

With cinema I am more sympathetic to what damage torrents can do as they can't change the film that drastically. Once you have seen it you have seen it so why would you want to pay (barring the better experience of cinemas or High-Def Televisual broadcasting)?

Overall the last thing that's needed is an extra method of the government to keep tabs on what the British public is up to. The proposed system for looking into the surfing history of every broadband connection sounds like a Fascist's wet dream.
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Keven

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Re: Panorama - Filesharing
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 05:59:02 AM »
Aside from anything else, I have a good CD player and like to use it. 2 good CD players, actually. Which reminds me, no one NOT ONE person even alluded to the lower quality of MP3s in download.

on that fact, today in the shop our local yorkville sales rep came in. he demoed their new 21'' 2400 active subwoofer to us. the songs he had in his iPod were doing the sub justice.. (there was some RATM song that made my eardrums suck back and forth in phase with the speaker)... a local kid wanted to plug his iPod in. he did. some power metal band or so. might have been the mp3 quality or the EQ on his iPod.... but all of a sudden the 21'' sub was muddy, like we expected it to be at first. the sales rep puts his own Ipod back in, and all the punch and clarity is back.

mp3 is a good way to sample the quality of a cd...... but it's definitely not a quality format. a sound guy once told me that mp3 has a wall for anything over 12khz. i can beleive that!
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