What price cosmetic perfection?

[Philly Q]

Most of the responses on the forum I refered to weren't related to fancy flame tops or inlays, they mainly were concerned with high gloss polyester finishes, maybe a little wobble or gap in the binding or a small knot somewhere in an otherwise perfect piece of timber (does it really matter?).

If I picked up a £500 guitar off the shelf and it had a flaw like the ones you'd mentioned, it wouldn't necessarily be a deal-breaker.  I'd be able to decide, there on the spot, how much it bothered me.

And I take Wez's point about Zemaitis and John Birch.  But presumably most people buying them would have an existing interest in those particular brands, so they'd have a reasonable idea what to expect.

But if it's a custom-ordered guitar, costing maybe a couple of grand or more... I expect the builder would discuss something like a knot in the wood at the outset to see how the customer felt, so hopefully that wouldn't become an issue.  On the other hand, if a problem arises during building, even a minor one like the flaw in the binding you mentioned.... I don't mean to be rude, but I think that's the builder's problem to sort out; it's not something the customer should be expected to accept just because it's a one-off guitar.*


(* I know you're not suggesting they should just accept it.  Just making a point.   :) )

[jpfamps]

An interesting question.

My guess is that cosmetics is the most easily noticeable feature of a guitar, so "cosmetic perfection" is seen as a mark of the care and attention given to the instrument.

If you are paying top whack for a new guitar, then, unless you want a relic,I expect most customers won't accept, say an orange peeled finish, or wonky inlays, regardless of the method of contruction.

Is a CNC routed Tele body any better/worse than one routed by hand? Certainly you won't be able to beat the accuracy of the CNC machine.

One problem mentioned above, is obviously with any custom ordered guitars, is that the you can never be 100% certain how the final instument will sound/play etc until it is finished, although of course this is why you rely on the experience and skill of the luthier.

[jpfamps]

Incidentally, the few build quality of the few Zemaitis guitars I've seen has not been stellar...

In fact one of the tell tale signs of a Zemaitis fake (and there are plenty of them) is that build quality is too good!

[dheim]

If 'cosmetic perfection' was really such an important issue , I am sure my guitars would have rejected me by now.

 :lol:

[Twinfan]

I'm with Philly Q on this one.  Great post mate!

[dave_mc]

knot in the wood... is this a rhythm in jump, dancing close to you kind of thing? o_O

[dheim]

i love imperfection and rough looks on guitars... i DON'T like at all those instruments (like most PRS to be honest) that do everything in their power to claim they're more expensive than your car... i hate baroque things!

[Ian Price]

knot in the wood... is this a rhythm in jump, dancing close to you kind of thing? o_O

A knot in the wood like this perhaps:



Not quite Rhythm in jump! I kind of like the look of it.

[FELINEGUITARS]

Wood imperfections are funny things .....one man's fault or blemish is another man's feature


In truth flame and quilt are faults in the wood - and dont get me started on spalted wood
I certainly wouldn't use quilted maple in a neck and have to be cautious using heavily flamed neck wood to a certain extent.

Obviously you dont want a knot that will loosen, or fall out or cause any distortion of the piece of wood, and as an instrument maker you try to avoid any potentially troublesome timbers

In furniture a knot or burl can be the most attractive feature (once again providing it isn't affecting the integrity of the wood) - I've seen people staring at the "fault" as a thing of beauty.

Some companies have kind of set the benchmark for what we expect in a guitars woods and how they look.

PRS were certainly a trendsetter over the last 20 years, and now nobody will accept flame unless it's a "10" top

I chuckle as I recall one customer who wanted some work doing - a new top on his guitar
He brought me a picture of the kind of thing he wanted - a picture from guitarist magazine of a quilted top on a reviewed guitar.
So we got a piece of very pretty quilted maple and fitted to his guitar and finished it all off.
It did look stunning , but there was a problem.......
The customer wanted the exact piece of wood that was on the guitar in the magazine picture - with EXACTLY the same grain pattern.
Had to explain that proper flame and quilt were natural features and quite random - not applied like a painted on pattern and therefore chances of finding the exact same pattern were nil.

I am pretty exacting on finishes and have been a thorn in the side of all the paint finishers that I have used, and have grown to learn what my finishers are damn good at and where their weaknesses lie.

[Bob Johnson]

Like everything we buy, car, motorbike the house that we live in it is expected to get what we pay for, you pay big money(PRS etc) we expect to get quality everywhere not just the sound, I for one don't mind low build quality if I pay a low price, if it sounds good and plays well, if I pay big money I expect it all.

The quote really shows what the luthiers on the LinkedIn forum were talking about; the inextricable link in the customers perception between finish and quality. Thanks Kevin.

You can buy guitars relatively cheaply that have perfect cosmetic finishes but are made out of stuff you wouldn't make a pallet out of. It's cheaper for them to give you a perfect finish than it is to use good quality timber and hardware.

Where custom guitars are concerned (and by that I don't mean a Fender or a Gibson with a custom sticker on the headstock) cosmetic perfection costs you a much larger percentage of the overall price of the guitar. A multi-stain finish like the one on my avatar (it has a matching headstock) will cost you over £450.

A few people have commented that if  you pay £2000 pounds for a guitar you expect perfection; the point is that you are getting a £1550 guitar with a good make up job.

Thanks for all the comments. I think I'll post a link to this thread on the other forum and let the guys see for themselves what the community think.

[AndyR]

Bit late to this, but it's a real interesting thread.

My first reaction to your original post, which hasn't changed while reading, is that I might possibly be a luthier's dream ... (except, at the moment, I won't spend that much on a single guitar!! :lol:)

Personally, I'm after an instrument, not a piece of furniture.

That's not to say that I disagree with other folks who want their perfection on an expensive jobbie, it's just that I don't view it in quite the same light.

I've yet to spend over a grand on a guitar. The most expensive one was just under, and it has some serious "who the f*** was doing this fretboard?!" eccentricities (it's a Gibson :D). But the thing is, it plays and sings like a dream, and even if you were watching me from the front row, only I would know about the scratches and dents in the fretboard.

I saw all these issues when I was evaluating it, and I was surprised by the "workmanship" that got through, and was even worried that my wife, who was with me, might see the marks and think it was a bit naff for the price of the thing... but it was absolutely obvious it that was a stunning guitar in my hands (to me and to her), and it would have been foolish to pass the thing up because of some marks that didn't really affect its worth, to me, as an instrument...

Now, if I came to one of you guys to build me a beast, I know that you probably wouldn't even let me see a fretboard like this particular one - if it went like that, you'd curse yourself or whoever had done it, and put it right. Conceivably, if it had happened near the end, and fixing it could drastically change the nature of the instrument, which was already proven - I'd imagine you'd want to consult with me along the lines of "look, this has happened, we got some options, one of which is fixing it, but the sound/feel might change..."

If I was going for custom build, I'd be hoping for the "instrument" bits of it to be glorious (the feel and playability, etc), and the cosmetics of it to be "pleasing". I'd have already checked out the builder's work, and would have some idea of the standard to expect. I'm not into flashy finishes, or at least, not that much, so I'd be speccing up a guitar that cut that side of the cost down to obtain an instrument that felt and played like a million dollars for as cheap as could be managed.

So for me, I'd want to spend on the guitar, and pay the minimum for the cosmetic perfection (knowing that most of you guys are going to take a fair bit of care over how it ends up anyway :D)

... Hope that helps :D

[HTH AMPS]

My take on this is, admittedly, contradictory.  I nearly always buy pre-used guitars which will naturally have some playing wear - I can accept that because I'm getting the guitar cheaper than if it was new.  Additionally, I'm also pretty tough on my guitars so they get beat up fairly quickly.

However, if I was to go the custom route and spend upwards of £2000, then I don't think that any blemishes are acceptable.  If the binding was a bit wonky, I'd consider that unacceptable - same with frets that have not been finished correctly, any lacquer runs, inlays that are sloppy with excess filler, a poorly matched 'figured' top, pickup surrounds that are not squared up, poorly cut nut etc... 

Then when the guitar was absolutely perfect, I'd be gigging the snot out of it and it would get some serious playing wear.  You can't win with customers like me, ha ha  :lol:

[Ratrod]

I don't care much for fancy tops and inlay work. Plain maple and regular pearl inlay is fine by me.

I care for attention to detail. Well made stuff. Smooth sanding, tight paint job, good fretwork, well cut nut and the way it feels.

[Bob Johnson]

My take on this is, admittedly, contradictory.  I nearly always buy pre-used guitars which will naturally have some playing wear - I can accept that because I'm getting the guitar cheaper than if it was new.  Additionally, I'm also pretty tough on my guitars so they get beat up fairly quickly.

However, if I was to go the custom route and spend upwards of £2000, then I don't think that any blemishes are acceptable.  If the binding was a bit wonky, I'd consider that unacceptable - same with frets that have not been finished correctly, any lacquer runs, inlays that are sloppy with excess filler, a poorly matched 'figured' top, pickup surrounds that are not squared up, poorly cut nut etc... 

Then when the guitar was absolutely perfect, I'd be gigging the snot out of it and it would get some serious playing wear.  You can't win with customers like me, ha ha  :lol:

I realise that I may have lead the discussion off track a little in places. The references to dodgy binding, the odd chisel mark etc were really in connection with a lot of very high priced vintage guitars that were about fifty-odd years ago; they did have these kinds of "faults" but are still very highly prized today in an age where appearance seems to have taken precedence.

In the example I gave about the cost of a multi-stained high gloss polyester finish the guitar would have sounded and played just as good or possibly better in an oil or wax finish at a fraction of the cost but would it be as acceptable to the customer?

The feeling among most of the luthiers on the forum was that customers these days are obsessed with appearance because they see it as a primary indicator of the quality of the instrument.

So it's possible to get a situation where luthier A is making higher quality instruments than luthier B but luthiers B's guitars have a better finish so they are perceived to be of higher quality, get better reviews and therefore do more business. This forces luthier A into adopting the same philosophy driving up the price of his instruments with no real benefit, other than the percection of quality, to the customer.

The possible exception to this was a violin maker who thought that the exact opposite was the case with violin players. :?

[Twinfan]

Golden rule - the customer is always right.