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Author Topic: Bigot!  (Read 16016 times)

AndyR

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2010, 02:13:09 PM »
Daves/etc
(answers to as much as I can - I ought to do some work...)

I worried about that bigot vs bigotted thing on the night.

I was wondering "is it just me?"

If you called me a bigotted person, I go "yeah, I guess I am".
If you called me a bigot, I'm be offended.

I think "bigot" comes across as more perjorative... not sure.

I was just interested that on the first night, even immediately after playing the clip, journalists were all going "GB called her a bigot...". I'm sat there going "no he didn't, Jeremy, get it right..."

Whereas the next night they had all strangely changed it to "GB called her a bigoted woman..."

... which kinda fitted with my misgivings?


On my rose-tinted interpretation. Yep, tis my interpretation only, based on hearing the recording while watching it synched in to the footage of them getting into the car and then driving away. The body language and head movements (he turns away from them as he says it) added to me feeling it was "end-of-conversation" "stop-worrying-about-it" stuff. They had the next engagement/faux-pas to go on to remember! :lol:


Oh yeah, and "media whore" - sorry, I meant someone actually good at it!! :lol: He's utterly useless at it... Did you see that AWFUL sickly grin Brown pulled at the end of last night's debate??!

Some backroom johnny obviously said "MAKE SURE YOU SMILE during the last sentence, look right at the camera and beam...". At the very moment he did it, that same Johnny was probably still in the backroom, cringing as his colleagues threw stale buns and empty coffee cups at him :lol:

I'd class Clegg as VERY good at it - he's a natural like Blair was. Cameron is the worst type, for me, he's got all the skills, but just doesn't sound as believable as Clegg... poor chap :lol: (me missus says it's cos his mouth's too small... I'm not so sure)
=====
OK politics...

I'm actually more concerned here about the media thing - if they'd done it to Cameron or Clegg I'd be just as p1ssed off with it.

But the way the we vote is the way we vote - we vote for what we agree most with.

I have to admit I don't personally hold labour responsible for the bankruptcy stuff, all parties are implicated in the expenses sh1t, etc, etc...

I didn't like the reasons that "they" gave for war, I assume we mean uncle Sadam here?, but I do think we had to do it - I just wished, even at the time, that Bush and Blair could have stood up and said "look, there's a nutter in charge of a big proportion of the remaining known oil reserves... what do you think? We don't like "might-is-right" anymore than you do, but we're kinda stuffed in 10-20 years if we let him and his family keep it... shall we go get the b@stard?" - I'm still convinced that was what it was about, and I'm afraid that's my way of thinking too... so we might not ever agree on that one, sorry!

My impression is they've done not a bad job of keeping it together through an absolute global sh1t-storm...

personally, I'd have let the banks fail... and stuff anyone who had savings in them - you took a risk putting it in the account, tough sh1t... but I've come round to the idea that it's possibly a good job I wasn't in charge at the time! :lol:

So, none of these things are things that I'm going to be holding against Labour.

I am also very suspicious of change-for-change-sake, especially when we're only just hanging on at the moment. If Cameron or Clegg had managed to outline to me something new that sounded like it would not make the next year or two more dangerous, then I might have been swayed... but they haven't.

The thing will right itself as much as it can anyway, regardless... There's even bigger sh1t kicking off right now... the EU constitution might not even matter in the next couple of years - we'll be too busy working out which side of the war in Europe to join to worry about it :lol:

Most of the "cr@p" is out of our hands - it's coming down anyway - we just need to figure out how to react to it.

I just happen to prefer the Brown offer of how he thinks he can steer us through what we're looking at at the moment - and I want Darling to continue as Chancellor, he's still got work to do.

I suspect I'm not going to get them though, and I'll accept whatever it is we do get :D
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Dmoney

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2010, 02:15:04 PM »
I heard the recording...
I thought he said 'big eared' woman, and to be fair, she did have big ears.

Philly Q

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2010, 02:21:27 PM »
My enemy's enemy is my friend and I want Brown and THE LABOUR PARTY out.

Hmm, you can end up with some dodgy "friends" that way.  :?
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Antag

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2010, 02:31:18 PM »
OK, I'll play :)

Every developed economy is worse off.  Brown didn't cause that.
Perhaps not, but we're much, much worse off because Brown ran a structural deficit at the top of the economic cycle.  That's worse than incompetent, it's wilfully destructive - if you can't pay your way when the cash is rolling in, how can you hope to when times are hard?

proportional representation, like most grown up economies have...
You mean like Italy (100+ changes of government since WWII?) & Belguim (no government at all for last year or so).  Consensus politics isn't "grown up", it's just an excuse to divide up the spoils in a backroom deal - simply swapping which party leads the same coalition is a de facto one party state.

My enemy's enemy is my friend and I want Brown and THE LABOUR PARTY out.
Hmm, you can end up with some dodgy "friends" that way.  :?
Yes & where would we be had we not been "friends" with Stalin in 1941-45?
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MrBump

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2010, 02:42:53 PM »

proportional representation, like most grown up economies have...
You mean like Italy (100+ changes of government since WWII?) & Belguim (no government at all for last year or so).  Consensus politics isn't "grown up", it's just an excuse to divide up the spoils in a backroom deal - simply swapping which party leads the same coalition is a de facto one party state.

Yep - always examples of good and bad practice.

But given lack of localised power, a system that pushes into power a party that got fewer votes than another party...  well, that's not my idea of a fair democracy.
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Alex

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2010, 02:45:09 PM »
I'm glad all this bullshitee is over on Thursday.
It doesn't matter who wins, nothing's going to change. All three candidates suck. I saw that TV show debate yesterday, hah, now I'm actually glad I don't get to vote in the UK!
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nfe

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2010, 02:47:55 PM »
Would you really say that even with this most rose tinted view of his actions you would be persuaded to vote in the rest of the labour govt who have run this country into the ground for the last 13 years?

Illegal Wars / bankruptcy / expenses scandal / no promised vote on EU constitution?

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...

Now, I'm far to left wing to vote for any of the three main parties, or even the four main parties in Scotland. But in the last thirteen years, we HAVE gained:

Minimum wage, civil partnerships, pension credits, winter fuel allowance, Surestart, free bus pass and tv licence for those whatever age it is, new schools, huge investment in the NHS with many new hospitals, NHS Direct, more doctors, more nurses, cutting waiting times for treatment dramatically. Devolved power to the Scottish and Welsh Assembly. Paternity Leave, more police, cut real crime (which the Tories insist on lying about), 700,000 children lifted out of child poverty. Added to that, we keep hearing about how we've just seen the worst recession ever ever evers! yet if you look around this doesn't look like a country on the brink of collapse, with less unemployment, business closures and repossessions than any other recession, and managed to keep inflation low.

Now there's undeniably been both good and bad. But none of this would have happened under the other government we could have had.

The illegal wars are unforgivable. Our continued support of horrific regimes is unforgivable Our refusal to legislate against people in the UK selling torture equipment to developing nations and staggering hypocrisy on nuclear arms are unforgivable.

But lets be honest, 99.999% of people in the nation don't really care about those issues come election time. They care about taxes and hospitals and police and schools and what they get paid for how much work. And on those issues Labour have a far better track record than the Tories. And either Gordon Brown or David Cameron will be prime minister on the 7th of May.

Best realistic result at the moment is Labour leading a Lab/Lib coalition government.

A liberal outright in would be better, with their 10K tax cut off and targetting on the income tax loopholes. It's an affront that the poorest earners pay a higher proportion of their income in tax than the wealthiest, which will get worse under Conservatives with income tax drops/inheritance tax cuts and VAT increases. But Liberals aren't winning outright, so ho hum.

tomjackson

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2010, 04:10:04 PM »

The 5 Billion Gordon Brown lost on the UK gold sales should see him in Prison IMO, he single handedly lost the equivalent of 6 bearings banks.  Nick leeson got 6-and-a-half years for his £827 Million loses.  The Bank of England advised him not to sell it but he sold it against the experts advice.  That would have paid for a lot of free bus passes!

I don't blame the media for all this, I blame the fat imbecile for forgetting to take his mike off then calling one of his own voters bigoted for just mentioning immigration. 

I've always voted Labour and I'm sure I will again but I think we need a change before everybody ends up working in Local Government :D

Antag

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2010, 04:45:45 PM »
a system that pushes into power a party that got fewer votes than another party...  well, that's not my idea of a fair democracy.
That's a fair criticism, but surely a far better answer than PR is to simply fix our heavily gerrymandered electoral map & actually attempt to resolve the constitutional inbalances caused by devolution?

If every consituency actually consisted of as close to the same number of voters as possible (currently there are variations of as much as 50,000!) then winning without getting the largest number of votes would become mathmatically impossible.

In the case of PR, the cure is far worse than the original illness IMHO...
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dave_mc

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2010, 04:49:28 PM »
^ possibly, but the big problem with FPTP, even if you do what you say, is that if you can win a ton of constituencies by a small margin, even if you get completely wiped in others, you win. Even if you don't have the most votes. That doesn't sit too well with me.

My enemy's enemy is my friend and I want Brown and THE LABOUR PARTY out.

i disagree with that logic when everything you (rightly) blamed brown for would be as bad, most likely worse, under the tories.

Do you honestly think that any UK government of any flavour could have prevented the current economic situation?

No.

We're a small country with a relatively loud voice, in an economic maelstrom dictated by China and the US.

Every developed economy is worse off.  Brown didn't cause that.

And a LibDem vote isn't a wasted vote, particularly if the resulting coalition puts forward a decent version of proportional representation, like most grown up economies have...

Ready, set, GO!

;)

not completely, considering the UK banks' exposure to the US housing market, but a decent/on the ball government (rather than one partying on deripaska's yacht) would have separated out merchant banking from retail banking. A decent gov would also not have allowed the banks to get so big that they couldn't be allowed to fail, nor to have such an imbalance in assets to liabilities. Nor to have a business plan based entirely on the glorified ponzi scheme that is the housing market. Even with what has happened, I still hear most politicians saying that we need to get house prices back up. WRONG! That was the problem in the first place. People couldn't afford them, but credit was too cheap and available, pushing the prices higher and higher, and people were willing to pay crazy prices for houses because "oh, in two years it'll be worth £50k more than I paid, so who cares?". It's crazy. Someone will doubtless say that I'm way too harsh and what about all the people who have houses and who are in fear of negative equity, but to that I would answer, "What about all the people who can't afford a house at all?"

could a UK gov have completely avoided this? doubtful (but as i said, australia did).

could it have avoided having to bail out the banks? yes.

I agree about the lib dems. If you vote for someone you don't like that's also a wasted vote.

andy: bigot might sound worse, yeah, i guess you could argue that the noun is being used to define the person, whereas as an adjective it could be one of many traits. my point is just that they mean the same thing.

i agree that the press is ridiculously biased. But it's even more biased against the lib dems, even still a lot of the press is trying to pretend that the lib dems are some strange fringe loony party. heck, they're older than labour!

fwiw, i'd rather see gordy get back in than cameron. no question. But i'd be willing to risk voting for the lib dems (if i lived in an area where I could).

gordy can't smile, no arguments there.

the iraq war was a complete stitch up, and both the tories and labour were in favour. it also vastly increased our exposure to terrorism.

clegg is probably a completely slimy politician too, but he seems less bad than the other two, and actually seems to argue based on policies rather than "if you vote for him you risk getting him!". "We're not as bad as the other guys" is hardly a vote-winner.

antag: belgium is a bit of a red herring there, I fear. It's split based on language etc., it's not really the PR system to blame.

and i don't think we had much choice in being friends with stalin, hitler invaded russia. he'd have invaded russia whether or not we were friends with him. In fact, he invaded russia when we weren't.

pretty much agreed with nfe (apart from the bit about the lib dems not having a chance... i'm still hoping :lol: ).

and yeah, the gold sell-off was daft.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 04:54:02 PM by dave_mc »

Afghan Dave

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2010, 05:48:23 PM »
Do you guys think Gordon is covered in Teflon?

Micro-Managing Chancellor for 11 years .. Then... Unelected Prime Minister.

He is accountable for his actions nothing more or less.

I wonder how many of you would still mount a chorus to blame Thatcher for X/Y/Z but seem to excuse this cabal of champagne socialists for almost anything.

Seems like a mass case of Stockholm syndrome.
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nfe

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2010, 06:08:14 PM »
Then... Unelected Prime Minister.

He's equally elected as every other British Prime Minister.

Quote
He is accountable for his actions nothing more or less.

Course.

My point is simply that the "Running things into the ground" tack just isn't a worthy sentiment, as for at almost every point in the last 13 years we've been in a better postion in almost all regards than at any point under the previous government. And this has only really changed in terms of economy in the last year and the reversing of positive moves in terms on civil liberties since Terror became a real headline grabber.

Johnny Mac

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2010, 06:14:00 PM »
Do you guys think Gordon is covered in Teflon?

Micro-Managing Chancellor for 11 years .. Then... Unelected Prime Minister.

He is accountable for his actions nothing more or less.

I wonder how many of you would still mount a chorus to blame Thatcher for X/Y/Z but seem to excuse this cabal of champagne socialists for almost anything.

Seems like a mass case of Stockholm syndrome.

+1

It's ok for New Labour to $%&# things up most socialists still harp on about the Torys mistakes like they were a million times worse than New Labours.
I got laid off twice last year. That never happened to me before.
I don't read newspapers as I think you just become what whatever political slant the paper is. I also think they're designed to keep you angry. So I take things as I see and hear them, not through the mind of an editorial. All I see and hear from the construction industry is hardship and an uncertain future. So I will never vote for New Labour again. They were supposed to help working class people. What a load of bollocks. They have created more taxes then ever and my employers have to work us even harder to get a profit out of us to cover these extra overheads or the business goes under and we don't have jobs. Blair $%&#ed up our working hours too, thinking he was doing us a favour. All I see in the poxy Labour party is a load over mature students messing up communities, pubs, small businesses, entertainment, education. I could go on but it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference as do the other posts here. People see the world according to where they are in it. Most people won't vote because they gave up giving a $%&# years ago. My Dad was in the Labour party and was always canvassing before elections. He can't get his head around the damage they have done and their motivations for their mental policies. So i guess he won't be voting for them this time around. Lots of my friends have emigrated because of them. I wish I $%&#ing did too. I hate them.  :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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nfe

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2010, 06:31:38 PM »
Do you guys think Gordon is covered in Teflon?

Micro-Managing Chancellor for 11 years .. Then... Unelected Prime Minister.

He is accountable for his actions nothing more or less.

I wonder how many of you would still mount a chorus to blame Thatcher for X/Y/Z but seem to excuse this cabal of champagne socialists for almost anything.

Seems like a mass case of Stockholm syndrome.

+1

It's ok for New Labour to $%&# things up most socialists still harp on about the Torys mistakes like they were a million times worse than New Labours.
I got laid off twice last year. That never happened to me before.
I don't read newspapers as I think you just become what whatever political slant the paper is. I also think they're designed to keep you angry. So I take things as I see and hear them, not through the mind of an editorial. All I see and hear from the construction industry is hardship and an uncertain future. So I will never vote for New Labour again. They were supposed to help working class people. What a load of bollocks. They have created more taxes then ever and my employers have to work us even harder to get a profit out of us to cover these extra overheads or the business goes under and we don't have jobs. Blair $%&#ed up our working hours too, thinking he was doing us a favour. All I see in the poxy Labour party is a load over mature students messing up communities, pubs, small businesses, entertainment, education. I could go on but it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference as do the other posts here. People see the world according to where they are in it. Most people won't vote because they gave up giving a $%&# years ago. My Dad was in the Labour party and was always canvassing before elections. He can't get his head around the damage they have done and their motivations for their mental policies. So i guess he won't be voting for them this time around. Lots of my friends have emigrated because of them. I wish I $%&#ing did too. I hate them.  :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Cool, so go vote for a Socialist party and attempt to actually help who gives a shit.  :)

Johnny Mac

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Re: Bigot!
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2010, 06:36:02 PM »
Do you guys think Gordon is covered in Teflon?

Micro-Managing Chancellor for 11 years .. Then... Unelected Prime Minister.

He is accountable for his actions nothing more or less.

I wonder how many of you would still mount a chorus to blame Thatcher for X/Y/Z but seem to excuse this cabal of champagne socialists for almost anything.

Seems like a mass case of Stockholm syndrome.

+1

It's ok for New Labour to $%&# things up most socialists still harp on about the Torys mistakes like they were a million times worse than New Labours.
I got laid off twice last year. That never happened to me before.
I don't read newspapers as I think you just become what whatever political slant the paper is. I also think they're designed to keep you angry. So I take things as I see and hear them, not through the mind of an editorial. All I see and hear from the construction industry is hardship and an uncertain future. So I will never vote for New Labour again. They were supposed to help working class people. What a load of bollocks. They have created more taxes then ever and my employers have to work us even harder to get a profit out of us to cover these extra overheads or the business goes under and we don't have jobs. Blair $%&#ed up our working hours too, thinking he was doing us a favour. All I see in the poxy Labour party is a load over mature students messing up communities, pubs, small businesses, entertainment, education. I could go on but it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference as do the other posts here. People see the world according to where they are in it. Most people won't vote because they gave up giving a $%&# years ago. My Dad was in the Labour party and was always canvassing before elections. He can't get his head around the damage they have done and their motivations for their mental policies. So i guess he won't be voting for them this time around. Lots of my friends have emigrated because of them. I wish I $%&#ing did too. I hate them.  :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Cool, so go vote for a Socialist party and attempt to actually help who gives a shit.  :)

I'm going to vote. I didn't say I wasn't. I do give a shite. I'm also going down the pub. If its still open for business that is.
Have a good evening and don't let us all fall out over this election!
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