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Author Topic: Scientific experiment with old violins (2 Stradivari) - another myth destroyed  (Read 23254 times)

Chris

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Sounds sensible WezV, thanks for the reply.  Even without the extra sustain I'm still tempted by a neck through - I guess I should get to a guitar shop and try some out.

Philly Q

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I can't see PRS using laminated necks if they have a good supply of quality neck blanks.

Yeah, but I could imagine Paul Reed Smith at least experimenting with laminates to see how they affect the tone.  After all, he builds guitars with that (Ed Roman despised) extended heel, specifically for increased stiffness.

As an aside, it seems almost contradictory that a one-piece body is (generally) seen as preferable to a two- or three-piece, but a multi-piece neck may well have distinct advantages over a one-piece.  I guess it's partly aesthetics versus practicality.
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Twinfan

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It's probably perception too - one piece=better/higher quality?

Roobubba

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Re: Violins/guitars
Purely distilling the quality of an instrument into its recorded sound isn't really a viable thing, either - unless the only criterion you care about is the recorded sound, of course. There are a whole host of other factors that make guitars desirable, such as cost, aesthetics, playability, hardware configuration, wood choices, style/size, comfort...
There are fewer factors of interest for violins. The size is sometimes changed (a bit), and there may be subtle (very subtle) changes in shape, other than that it really comes down to quality of the woods used, quality of the workmanship, and quality of the set-up. Given that the violins being compared are not any old cheap chinese mass produced knock-offs, but are high quality, expert-built instruments, it's hardly a result to find that there's not something 'magical' about the Stradivari. However, there is something desirable about them, because they were all extremely well made instruments, and those that have survived to this day are also antiques! That itself makes them desirable, collectors items so of course they're expensive!!

My viola was made somewhere around the 1900 mark, so in classical instrument terms it's a relative newbie. It's well made, but not superb, but I like the sound it makes. That's as subjective as it needs to be - an instrument that is comfortable to play, makes a good sound to your ears (and looks the part) is what any serious musician is looking for first and foremost. If it also happens to be an antique made by "one of the very finest" luthiers of all time, which also adds to your credibility/saleability as a professional musician (oh, he/she plays a Strad? Wow, I might go along to that concert), all the better!

Re: Music as a science
Beethoven was not a mathematician or a physicist. He was a composer and an artist. I would argue that any algorithm that 'composes' music is based on what has already gone before (well well before computers, or even the formalisation of scales in mathematical terms) and is therefore unable to come up with genuinely new genres or even able to make big jumps between genres which are perhaps heavily interrelated. I would conjecture that an algorithm that 'learned' how to compose having only been fed baroque is absolutely 100% NOT going to compose anything akin to, say Holst's Planets Suite. Let alone more modern music, all of which is built on previous music going back to Baroque and well beyond.

By the same token, what I do in my job is not art, despite parts of it requiring lots of technical skill and practice to perfect.

In addition, while you can describe our western scales in neat integer values of tone frequency, and rhythms and even timbres can also be described succinctly in mathematical terms, the same isn't true of other music forms, such as Indian-rooted music, and probably many tribal musics, too.

Finally, music is an art form that is subjectively appreciated. This is simply not true of science: something is correct or it is not, you don't pick and choose a theorem that you like because it speaks to you, whereas classic drawn/painted art, music, sculpture, creative writing - all of these are subjective.

To take this argument back to a much simpler one, while almost everything can be explained in physical/mathematical terms, that does not make it physics/maths. Chemistry, for example. So to take a huge leap over to music and say it's a science is just nonsense, I'm afraid. It's perfectly fine to be interested in the very real and interesting subject of the science/mathematics of music but that is not the same as 'music' itself and the two should not be confused!!


Just my most humble of opinions, of course :)

Roo

Chris

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Re: Music as a science
Beethoven was not a mathematician or a physicist. He was a composer and an artist.
Erm... yes.  Also, I'm not a statistician, but I use a lot of statistics every day.  I'm not a writer, but I have to write an awful lot in my day to day life.  Beethoven was not a mathematician, but he used mathematics a lot in his music, even if he did not know he was doing so.  He may not have learned the formalisms (although I'd be surprised if he didn't), but either way he did use it.

I would argue that any algorithm that 'composes' music is based on what has already gone before (well well before computers, or even the formalisation of scales in mathematical terms) and is therefore unable to come up with genuinely new genres or even able to make big jumps between genres which are perhaps heavily interrelated. I would conjecture that an algorithm that 'learned' how to compose having only been fed baroque is absolutely 100% NOT going to compose anything akin to, say Holst's Planets Suite. Let alone more modern music, all of which is built on previous music going back to Baroque and well beyond.

By the same token, what I do in my job is not art, despite parts of it requiring lots of technical skill and practice to perfect.
This is true.  I think you may have made the same mistake as a few of the earlier posters - nobody said that music was Science or Mathematics.  Somebody posted saying that music had nothing to do with Science it was purely art, to which the reply was that music requires both Science and Art - either one alone is not going to cut the mustard, so to speak.  Computers using algorithms can produce passable, familiar music, but in order to be innovative, you need to break out of the box and that is where the art, or feel, comes in.  However art alone is also insufficient - without the Mathematics side it would just be a mess of notes that sound awful.  A fusion of the two is what is required.

In addition, while you can describe our western scales in neat integer values of tone frequency, and rhythms and even timbres can also be described succinctly in mathematical terms, the same isn't true of other music forms, such as Indian-rooted music, and probably many tribal musics, too. 
Actually it is true of any music system, including Indian music.  The algorithms just have to be different, that's all.

Finally, music is an art form that is subjectively appreciated. This is simply not true of science: something is correct or it is not, you don't pick and choose a theorem that you like because it speaks to you, whereas classic drawn/painted art, music, sculpture, creative writing - all of these are subjective.
This is a bit too simplistic - I prefer string theory to quantum loop gravity, largely because it speaks to me better - I see more beauty in that theory.  I understand what you are trying to say, but it is not that cut and dry.  There is Art and Science in most subjects, in differing ratios, but people often make the mistake of thinking that some subjects are only Art, or only Science.  It doesn't really matter when people make this mistake, except that it perpetuates some of the daft opinions that some people have about 'the other side'.  A lot of Science-y people are derisive of arty subjects for being 'easy' or 'totally subjective', and a lot of arty people are derisive of Science-y subjects because they are 'boring' or 'lack beauty', etc.  That's why I get annoyed when people try to say that there is no science in music or art, or that there is no art or beauty in Science.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 07:21:21 PM by Chris »

Roobubba

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Re: Music as a science
Beethoven was not a mathematician or a physicist. He was a composer and an artist.
Erm... yes.  Also, I'm not a statistician, but I use a lot of statistics every day.  I'm not a writer, but I have to write an awful lot in my day to day life.  Beethoven was not a mathematician, but he used mathematics a lot in his music, even if he did not know he was doing so.  He may not have learned the formalisms (although I'd be surprised if he didn't), but either way he did use it.

I would argue that any algorithm that 'composes' music is based on what has already gone before (well well before computers, or even the formalisation of scales in mathematical terms) and is therefore unable to come up with genuinely new genres or even able to make big jumps between genres which are perhaps heavily interrelated. I would conjecture that an algorithm that 'learned' how to compose having only been fed baroque is absolutely 100% NOT going to compose anything akin to, say Holst's Planets Suite. Let alone more modern music, all of which is built on previous music going back to Baroque and well beyond.

By the same token, what I do in my job is not art, despite parts of it requiring lots of technical skill and practice to perfect.
This is true.  I think you may have made the same mistake as a few of the earlier posters - nobody said that music was Science or Mathematics.  Somebody posted saying that music had nothing to do with Science it was purely art, to which the reply was that music requires both Science and Art - either one alone is not going to cut the mustard, so to speak.  Computers using algorithms can produce passable, familiar music, but in order to be innovative, you need to break out of the box and that is where the art, or feel, comes in.  However art alone is also insufficient - without the Mathematics side it would just be a mess of notes that sound awful.  A fusion of the two is what is required.

In addition, while you can describe our western scales in neat integer values of tone frequency, and rhythms and even timbres can also be described succinctly in mathematical terms, the same isn't true of other music forms, such as Indian-rooted music, and probably many tribal musics, too. 
Actually it is true of any music system, including Indian music.  The algorithms just have to be different, that's all.

Finally, music is an art form that is subjectively appreciated. This is simply not true of science: something is correct or it is not, you don't pick and choose a theorem that you like because it speaks to you, whereas classic drawn/painted art, music, sculpture, creative writing - all of these are subjective.
This is a bit too simplistic - I prefer string theory to quantum loop gravity, largely because it speaks to me better - I see more beauty in that theory.  I understand what you are trying to say, but it is not that cut and dry.  There is Art and Science in most subjects, in differing ratios, but people often make the mistake of thinking that some subjects are only Art, or only Science.  It doesn't really matter when people make this mistake, except that it perpetuates some of the daft opinions that some people have about 'the other side'.  A lot of Science-y people are derisive of arty subjects for being 'easy' or 'totally subjective', and a lot of arty people are derisive of Science-y subjects because they are 'boring' or 'lack beauty', etc.  That's why I get annoyed when people try to say that there is no science in music or art, or that there is no art or beauty in Science.

Nope, I'm pretty sure I've got what you're saying.

Just because you can describe something mathematically, doesn't make it maths.

Your argument simply doesn't make sense. The extension to it is that fine art is maths, too. After all, placement of certain geometric figures causes the observer's eyes to follow a predescribed trajectory, instilling a feeling in the observer.

I contest that Beethoven didn't 'use a lot of mathematics' in his music.

His music, as with all music, can be described in mathematical terms to some degree (but not completely), but that doesn't mean that it was calculated, it was written as a piece of art to be enjoyed as a piece of art.

I refer you to my last statement: the science of music is not the same as the music!

Chris

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Nope, I'm pretty sure I've got what you're saying.

Just because you can describe something mathematically, doesn't make it maths.

Your argument simply doesn't make sense. The extension to it is that fine art is maths, too. After all, placement of certain geometric figures causes the observer's eyes to follow a predescribed trajectory, instilling a feeling in the observer.

I contest that Beethoven didn't 'use a lot of mathematics' in his music.

His music, as with all music, can be described in mathematical terms to some degree (but not completely), but that doesn't mean that it was calculated, it was written as a piece of art to be enjoyed as a piece of art.

I refer you to my last statement: the science of music is not the same as the music!

Well, if you really have got what I'm saying, then some of your later points don't make any sense... 

- once again, I never said that music was maths, so that first statement is not necessary (if you did indeed read what I wrote above when I explicitly said that music is not maths in my post).
- the extension to my argument is not that fine art is maths, it is that fine art is partly art, and partly maths (mostly art, I'd argue).
- "the Science of music is not the same as the music" - again, that is what I said quite explicitly in my post, so I'm not sure what you're arguing with.

You still don't seem to get what I'm saying - once again, music is not science, music is not maths, music is not art.  Music is a fusion of all of these.  The same goes for any discipline you care to mention.  We tend, as a people, to silo things into their own little categories.  Biology, Chemistry, Maths and Physics are Sciences. Architecture, Painting and Music are arts.  History, Geography and Religion are humanities.  The list goes on.  The point is that those divisions are all imposed by man; nature knows of no such boundaries.  To try to separate History and Painting is impossible.  To study Architecture without the inherent Maths is to make it impotent.  To study music without its underlying Science is also impossible, even if you don't realise that you are learning of its Science in the process of learning music.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:12:49 PM by Chris »

shobet

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here we go again!

I'd post pictures of some massive tits, but the last lot got deleted.
There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary.
Those who do and those who do not.

Chris

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here we go again!

I'd post pictures of some massive tits, but the last lot got deleted.

No bother - I've got me own  :lol:

(pictures, not tits!)

Philly Q

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here we go again!

I'd post pictures of some massive tits, but the last lot got deleted.

Did they?

I didn't think we were normally subject to such draconian modding.
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Lezard

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I wonder if the same would happen to moobs...and if a transexual's boobs fall under the category of moobs.

annnnnd DEBATE!
It wasn't a mistake, it was chromaticism, I swear.

shobet

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here we go again!

I'd post pictures of some massive tits, but the last lot got deleted.

Did they?

I didn't think we were normally subject to such draconian modding.

Yep, they were lovely jumblats 'n' all!
There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary.
Those who do and those who do not.

gwEm

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I don't think you can remove the emotion from the instrument.  Music isn't scientific, it's all about feel and emotion.  The mind is a powerful thing and if knowing you're playing a Strad or '59 Les Paul gives you THAT emotion when you play and you hit nirvana, then that's all that matters...

This is exactly what I think about it too.
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you wouldn't use the meat knife on crusty bread but, equally, the serrated knife and straight edge knife aren't going to go through raw meat as quickly

gwEm

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Uh oh.

This is turning into one of those contentious "highbrow debate" threads....

Who'd have thunk it?

I quite like this one though, but I guess everyone can contribute equally here.
I'm just drinking down everyones views, really interesting ideas.
Quote from: AndyR
you wouldn't use the meat knife on crusty bread but, equally, the serrated knife and straight edge knife aren't going to go through raw meat as quickly

Philly Q

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I never quite make it all the way through the long posts, but I think I agree with Roo*.



(*...not about Teles, obviously.  And I'm indifferent on the Macca thing.)
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