Any Veggies Out There?

[XxpapertigerxX]

Everyone loves veggie propaganda.

Propaganda is the deliberate manipulation of facts in order to control people. What I posted is NOT propaganda. Honestly I thought you would have been one of the more receptive, because I posted facts and findings from studies as reported by a variety of sources. Anyway, the quotes are just little snippets of the articles for illustrative purposes, you have to actually click on the links to read the whole story. You can debate the health effects, because it really comes down to what risks you are willing to take. Just about everything increases your chances of an early death, so everyone has the right to determine how they balance those risks. However, the environmental impacts are extremely important and effects us all. Like I said before, the meat industry isn't the only thing killing our planet, but it's a major player and must be addressed.

[XxpapertigerxX]

your odds of dying from cancer might be reduced, but i notice it doesn't mention how your odds of being murdered by people sick of the veggie propaganda massively increase :lol:

seriously, though- i'm under no illusions that it's probably not doing some harm. But as i said- everything you do is.

And cancer is only one disease you can get. a pretty unpleasant one, granted, but still.

"All that said, if you become a vegetarian but compensate by eating a ton of dairy products, then you're just substituting one poison for another."

lolwut? you have a weird definition of a poison.

Ok obviously it's not actual poison, I just used hyperbole to illustrate my point. Dairy products aren't very good for your health, at least not how we consume them in the west. I totally understand that you aren't concerned by the health risks. The more important aspect is the effect on the environment, anyway.

[nfe]

Everyone loves veggie propaganda.

Propaganda is the deliberate manipulation of facts in order to control people. What I posted is NOT propaganda. Honestly I thought you would have been one of the more receptive, because I posted facts and findings from studies as reported by a variety of sources. Anyway, the quotes are just little snippets of the articles for illustrative purposes, you have to actually click on the links to read the whole story.

Indeed you do. But reducing extremely complex (and massively debated) issues to such simplistic statements IS propaganda - information presented in a biased fashion to support or promote a specific cause or ideology. And in this case, it harms the cause more than it promotes it.

There is also questionable science involved in the red meat cancer link study. You can't make conclusions based on diet without considering all other lifestyle aspects. Ben Goldacre would have a riot.

[dave_mc]

^ +1

I could be wrong but that might be the study that even george monbiot admitted was dodgy.

Ok obviously it's not actual poison, I just used hyperbole to illustrate my point. Dairy products aren't very good for your health, at least not how we consume them in the west. I totally understand that you aren't concerned by the health risks. The more important aspect is the effect on the environment, anyway.

there are health risks related to not eating enough dairy, too.

[Shag101]

there are health risks related to not eating enough dairy, too.

false statement.  there is nothing in dairy that can not be easily had elsewhere.

[XxpapertigerxX]

Everyone loves veggie propaganda.

Propaganda is the deliberate manipulation of facts in order to control people. What I posted is NOT propaganda. Honestly I thought you would have been one of the more receptive, because I posted facts and findings from studies as reported by a variety of sources. Anyway, the quotes are just little snippets of the articles for illustrative purposes, you have to actually click on the links to read the whole story.

Indeed you do. But reducing extremely complex (and massively debated) issues to such simplistic statements IS propaganda - information presented in a biased fashion to support or promote a specific cause or ideology. And in this case, it harms the cause more than it promotes it.

There is also questionable science involved in the red meat cancer link study. You can't make conclusions based on diet without considering all other lifestyle aspects. Ben Goldacre would have a riot.

I see your point, although I couldn't paste the entire article into a post, so the quotes were the best I could do. Quoting the articles, to which I posted the link, by the way, is not propaganda. The quotes are also backed up by research, which you can verify by actually reading the articles. Honestly, the propaganda argument is really just a red herring in this context, because you're diverting the conversation from the actual issues.

If you read the articles, and Im not getting the sense that you are, it says that the studies controlled for other variables, such as smoking, lifestyle, etc. in order to isolate the meats effect. In fact, one of the studies was on a group of people who don't drink, smoke, etc. but some of them are also vegetarians and some are not.

Finally, I want to say that I'm not an extremist vegetarian/vegan who wants to force the lifestyle on others. In fact, I'm not even a true vegetarian, as I occasionally eat fish. I just think it's an extremely important issue that our society has chosen to generally ignore.

[juansolo]

there are health risks related to not eating enough dairy, too.

There are health risks associated with everything... It's how you balance them up. For example I don't smoke, but most of my working life I worked shifts which screws you up by not giving your body enough/consistent down time. The reckoning is that it literally takes years off your life. Anyhow I stopped doing those when I just physically couldn't do it any more. I actually quite liked them and there were many benefits, not just financially, you got lots of time off and it was nice to be off when everyone was at work. It totally freaked me out just how busy the world was when I came off shift...

Likewise meat. As with so many other things, it's probably bad for me, but it's very, very tasty. Rabbit food simply isn't. As I enjoy food I accept the risks in order to gain pleasure from eating.

I look at life like this (having had one of my best friends die very young), you can pretty much pop your clogs at any time. Freak accident on the way to work, fit blokes even have heart attacks in their 20's these days playing footy. Life really is too short not to enjoy it as much as you can while you're fit and healthy enough to do it.

My father regrets not buying a sports car and being a tight arse all his life. Pancreatitis nearly killed him and caused him to re-evaluate his philosophy. Sadly his hips and back are so knackered now he can't drive the car he always dreamed of and now actively encourages me to do it now while I can (but still be sensible when it comes to planning for the future). It's balance essentially.

On to the global warming thing.

I'm sure it'll sound selfish to the people that think I'm killing the planet in one way or another. But look at it this way; we're part of this planet's eco-system for better or for worse (mainly the latter) and yes, what we do absolutely has a knock on effect on a global scale.

There is irrefutable proof that the planet is warming as there's no denying that the ice caps are melting. Relatively speaking we're still coming out of an ice age (thinking of this on a planetary scale, not a human one). Will we have impact on that? Almost certainly. Are we causing it? That simply cannot be proven one way or the other. Anything published stating 'facts' on this are more often that not best guesses portrayed as facts to push a political agenda. Is it a bad thing on a planetary scale? Who knows!

As such it cannot be proven that cows farting is causing the planet to melt... If so, using my dodgy science, vegitarians (as cows also are) fart more and are also causing global warming. Eat meat (vegitarians) and save the planet!

[Twinfan]

I look at life like this (having had one of my best friends die very young), you can pretty much pop your clogs at any time. Freak accident on the way to work, fit blokes even have heart attacks in their 20's these days playing footy. Life really is too short not to enjoy it as much as you can while you're fit and healthy enough to do it.

Sorry about your friend John.  A close friend's younger brother was killed in a traffic accident when I was 18, and I think that has a lot to do with me having the same attitude to life as you do.  You have one shot at it, so enjoy it while you can...

[tomjackson]

I agree.  But some peoples shot is different to to other peoples.  As long as were all doing our own and leaving each other to get on with it then it's fine :D

And my shot will hopefully include one day owning a car like this as well!

http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/motas/juno.html

[juansolo]

I agree.  But some peoples shot is different to to other peoples.  As long as were all doing our own and leaving each other to get on with it then it's fine :D

And my shot will hopefully include one day owning a car like this as well!

http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/motas/juno.html

That'll probably be for sale at the end of the year the way things are going :(

[tomjackson]

I agree.  But some peoples shot is different to to other peoples.  As long as were all doing our own and leaving each other to get on with it then it's fine :D

And my shot will hopefully include one day owning a car like this as well!

http://juansolo.demon.co.uk/motas/juno.html

That'll probably be for sale at the end of the year the way things are going :(

Bummer.  Get it out as much over summer as you can then!

[juansolo]

Got Spa/Zandvoort booked for July/Aug. Gonna try and squeeze in an Oulton or Silverstone before it. That'll be it I suspect. Co-owner was made redundant for xmas :( Luckily they got him a load of track time for his leaving present and I'm paying for the Eurotrip (unless he gets a job in the meantime). If things are looking equally grim post-Spa, we'll probably have to flog it. Shame but that's the way it goes.

[dave_mc]

false statement.  there is nothing in dairy that can not be easily had elsewhere.

well sure, but it's a heck of a lot easier to get it in dairy products most of the time

Sorry about your friend John.  A close friend's younger brother was killed in a traffic accident when I was 18, and I think that has a lot to do with me having the same attitude to life as you do.  You have one shot at it, so enjoy it while you can...

+1

and sorry to hear about your friend's brother, too

[nfe]

Everyone loves veggie propaganda.

Propaganda is the deliberate manipulation of facts in order to control people. What I posted is NOT propaganda. Honestly I thought you would have been one of the more receptive, because I posted facts and findings from studies as reported by a variety of sources. Anyway, the quotes are just little snippets of the articles for illustrative purposes, you have to actually click on the links to read the whole story.

Indeed you do. But reducing extremely complex (and massively debated) issues to such simplistic statements IS propaganda - information presented in a biased fashion to support or promote a specific cause or ideology. And in this case, it harms the cause more than it promotes it.

There is also questionable science involved in the red meat cancer link study. You can't make conclusions based on diet without considering all other lifestyle aspects. Ben Goldacre would have a riot.

I see your point, although I couldn't paste the entire article into a post, so the quotes were the best I could do. Quoting the articles, to which I posted the link, by the way, is not propaganda. The quotes are also backed up by research, which you can verify by actually reading the articles. Honestly, the propaganda argument is really just a red herring in this context, because you're diverting the conversation from the actual issues.

If you read the articles, and Im not getting the sense that you are, it says that the studies controlled for other variables, such as smoking, lifestyle, etc. in order to isolate the meats effect. In fact, one of the studies was on a group of people who don't drink, smoke, etc. but some of them are also vegetarians and some are not.

Finally, I want to say that I'm not an extremist vegetarian/vegan who wants to force the lifestyle on others. In fact, I'm not even a true vegetarian, as I occasionally eat fish. I just think it's an extremely important issue that our society has chosen to generally ignore.

I've read the articles. A couple times prior to your posting them and skimmed them again since. They're widely posted on forums with ALF and PETA folks post a lot and are equally widely panned by folks with far more area-specific knowledge than I do so I don't really care to examine them in more detail again. I've been to a couple lectures centred around the red meat (and other similar publications) one in fact.

The controls are all fine and well for TRYING to narrow down specific effects. But over such a long period of time, it is never more than educated guessing - if it's ever even that.

And propaganda is generally backed by research. Whose research, whose funding and their methods are the issues. You've read far too much into a flippant, throwaway post anyway. The word propaganda was there only because of how little heed I think anyone should pay to that type of soundbite rhetoric employed by morons like PETA. You gave links to the articles sure, but you picked out sensationalist quips to make a point which is debated by people with vastly more experience and knowledge in the field than (i'm almost sure) anyone posting here, and not nearly so certain as you implied.

[tomjackson]

Got Spa/Zandvoort booked for July/Aug. Gonna try and squeeze in an Oulton or Silverstone before it. That'll be it I suspect. Co-owner was made redundant for xmas :( Luckily they got him a load of track time for his leaving present and I'm paying for the Eurotrip (unless he gets a job in the meantime). If things are looking equally grim post-Spa, we'll probably have to flog it. Shame but that's the way it goes.

Let me know if you manage to get to Oulton, might pop down if you do.....