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Author Topic: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...  (Read 16438 times)

Philly Q

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2012, 07:58:20 AM »
^

Very interesting post!   :)
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Brow

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2012, 08:01:33 AM »
simply because they sound and feel different from 42 awg wound pickups
43 awg pickups with medium 10k-13k tend to sound bright and thin and going over 14k makes everything NOT paf sounding

the black dog and neck cold sweat are 42.5 polysol and they already feel different from 42 awg enamel models
technically, the only difference between the neck cold sweat and the bridge riff raff is the wire
same dc resistance, short alnico 5 magnet, symmetrical coils
in the bridge, they share a lot in common, but the riff raff sounds vintagey and the cold sweat simply doesn't

and going up to 43 awg makes a lot of diference, specially considering you have to get the dc up to tame the top end and fill the mids back (thinner wire = bigger resistance = less turns = less bass and mids and more treble)
and the hotter they're wound, further they get from the PAF ballpark

using softer sounding magnets like alnico 2, 3, 4, "isotropic" unoriented alnico 5 will tame things down but still won't make a hot wound pickup sound like a paf wound model
a bridge abraxas surely has a lot in common with a mule, but just can't sound the same
the nailbomb also has something in common with both riff raff and VHII... it's a different sound, but you can tell where it came from

and that's why we have so many options
if hotter wound pickups could sound like a paf model just by rolling off the knobs, we wouldn't be limiting our guitars to low output models, as we could have a lot more versatile guitars with hotter pickups that could do anything

and obviously, there's a reason slash prefers the alnico 2 pros


Good informative post!

I've never really gone into in that much detail so I'm always happy to learn something when someone else does  :lol:
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Slartibartfarst42

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2012, 08:03:05 AM »
Thanks Eric, that's really interesting  :D

So if I have this right, thinner wire like 42AWG creates more resistance, which naturally has more bass and mids than 43AWG wire and equally, the hotter the wind, the more bass and mids you get.

Assuming my understanding is correct, that is why the vintage pickups all use 42AWG on very light winds and consequently they are all reasonably bright. If 43AWG was used with the same level of wind, the pickup would end up very bright indeed. On the Abraxas, we start with the same AIV magnet as the Mule but the hotter wind would have made it a far darker pickup so 43AWG is used to compensate and give it some highs back. I can see this logic with the VHII and Black Dog so I'd guess that both use 42AWG (the website only mentions it on the VHII) and the hotter wind is giving them more low end than the vintage range. Would I therefore be correct in thinking that the Emerald uses 43AWG because that's an even hotter wind but is considerably brighter than either the VHII or Black Dog?

I assume this means that when we talk about hotter pickups like Abraxas and Crawler etc. being 'PAF-like' it can only ever be in a very vague sense because they're inherently not PAF's. Going further, I would guess that all this must make the Abraxas a VERY versatile pickup indeed and must be why HTH AMPS likes them so much. The AIV magnet will soften the edges and keep things sweet to give it at least a PAF 'feel' while the hot wind would also give it quite a contemporary feel so I'm guessing it should be very good at everything from Blues to at least Classic Rock and maybe further.

Would all that be reasonably accurate or have I gone wrong somewhere?

Sorry if this is hijacking the thread a little but it just seemed a really interesting question that had arisen as a result of this thread.
BKP owned:

Bridge - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; A-Bomb; Holydiver; Miracle Man; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

Neck - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; Holydiver; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

Telerocker

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2012, 09:23:49 PM »
Good info and contributions here by Brow and Eric. I can just testify that the Mule and the Crawler are two different worlds, althought the Crawler has some PAF-pedigree. The Mule provides a genuine late fifties PAF-tone with more depth, balance and tonal richness then the Crawler, which has his own strong points. Once more: the Mule doesn't sound thin and is NOT too bright.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 01:16:34 AM by Telerocker »
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ericsabbath

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2012, 11:05:16 PM »
So if I have this right, thinner wire like 42AWG creates more resistance, which naturally has more bass and mids than 43AWG wire and equally, the hotter the wind, the more bass and mids you get.

42 awg = thicker gauge = less resistance
43 awg = thinner wire = more resistance

to reach 10k, for example, a 42 awg humbucker must be overwound as f*** to the point the wire wouldn't fit in regular sized bobbins, and tonewise, it would sound very dark and bassy
a 10k humbucker with 43 awg wire, (I suppose that's what the neck nailbomb is) would have a lot less turns and should be bright as $%&#
the miracle man is 45 awg poly, that's why it's wound up to 18k and still has a ton of high end
the nailbomb is 43 awg enamel and has a lot of treble as well, but must be very asymetrical to retain that kind of top end

the black dog is 42.5 awg polysol, like the neck cold sweat, and unlike the VHII, which is 42 awg enamel, but as it's heavily overwound the high end rolls back nicely
the vhII is even more overwound, but the coil offset holds the mids back a bit and boosts the top and low end
also, the vhII has the long magnet, like the nailbomb and mule (black dog is short magnet, like the riff raff and the neck cold sweat)
not sure how big is the tonal difference between a short magnet pickup to a long magnet pickup, but I suppose the long magnet makes things slightly punchier
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 11:09:22 PM by Eric Hellstyle »
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Slartibartfarst42

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2012, 11:25:25 PM »
MMmmm, clearly I got that a little wrong but then technical stuff isn't really my thing. I had assumed that the smaller number meant a thinner gauge (seemed logical) but it seems it's the other way around. Nevertheless, it's been really interesting reading about this and it's given me a great deal of food for thought. I've been saving steadily to get a Holydiver bridge and Emerald neck in my PRS but this thread has got me thinking about other possibilities. I know the Holydiver will fit my musical style really well as I've already owned one but reading this thread has also made me think about pushing it a bit more in a Blues direction as some of my favourite tones are Slash, Gary Moore and Santana. I'm starting to think that the Abraxas might be a good option for the bridge but having never been down as far as AIV I'm a touch concerned that the bass may be too soft for the Rockier stuff and as I also like a saturated tone at times (Orianthi) it would perhaps be a bit too open. Still, all interesting stuff and it's given me lots to think about. Great thread.
BKP owned:

Bridge - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; A-Bomb; Holydiver; Miracle Man; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

Neck - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; Holydiver; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

darrenw5094

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2012, 12:00:14 AM »
MMmmm, clearly I got that a little wrong but then technical stuff isn't really my thing.

Me either, i just focus on playing the guitar. 8)
BKP: Abraxas - Les Paul
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Emerald - Les Paul
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Brow

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2012, 07:58:40 AM »
MMmmm, clearly I got that a little wrong but then technical stuff isn't really my thing. I had assumed that the smaller number meant a thinner gauge (seemed logical) but it seems it's the other way around. Nevertheless, it's been really interesting reading about this and it's given me a great deal of food for thought. I've been saving steadily to get a Holydiver bridge and Emerald neck in my PRS but this thread has got me thinking about other possibilities. I know the Holydiver will fit my musical style really well as I've already owned one but reading this thread has also made me think about pushing it a bit more in a Blues direction as some of my favourite tones are Slash, Gary Moore and Santana. I'm starting to think that the Abraxas might be a good option for the bridge but having never been down as far as AIV I'm a touch concerned that the bass may be too soft for the Rockier stuff and as I also like a saturated tone at times (Orianthi) it would perhaps be a bit too open. Still, all interesting stuff and it's given me lots to think about. Great thread.

When you say 'Rockier Stuff' what sort of stuff do you mean? It's a broad term.

I have a pair of Abraxas in my CU22 and it'll do pretty much anything apart from the heaviest of metal with relative ease. It seems a tad too loose for the really heavy stuff, but that could just be that it's not really my forte' and I don't know what I'm doing!  :lol:
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itamar101

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2012, 08:48:47 AM »
MMmmm, clearly I got that a little wrong but then technical stuff isn't really my thing. I had assumed that the smaller number meant a thinner gauge (seemed logical) but it seems it's the other way around. Nevertheless, it's been really interesting reading about this and it's given me a great deal of food for thought. I've been saving steadily to get a Holydiver bridge and Emerald neck in my PRS but this thread has got me thinking about other possibilities. I know the Holydiver will fit my musical style really well as I've already owned one but reading this thread has also made me think about pushing it a bit more in a Blues direction as some of my favourite tones are Slash, Gary Moore and Santana. I'm starting to think that the Abraxas might be a good option for the bridge but having never been down as far as AIV I'm a touch concerned that the bass may be too soft for the Rockier stuff and as I also like a saturated tone at times (Orianthi) it would perhaps be a bit too open. Still, all interesting stuff and it's given me lots to think about. Great thread.

Having tried a few AIV pickups ive pretty much convinced myself that I'm never going to put one in the bridge unless its very low output (the mule for example) because if I want to play heavy rock I want a tight bass and reasonably cutting highs for chord clarity. If I wanted to play softer music than hard rock then the Abraxas seems too high output for me for that and I see no reason that the mule couldn't handle it. But on the other hand, maybe I'm a bit biased because the abraxas has never really appealed to me in the first place.

ericsabbath

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2012, 09:32:36 AM »
didn't try alnico 4 in the bridge, but I don't find the neck mule to be too soft
it has a lower dc than the cold sweat and the motor city 2nd degree black belt I had, so it's expected to be cleaner
it doesn't push the solos like the cold sweat, but it doesn't get muddy under high gain, like gibson burstbucker pros (alnico 5) or 57 classics (alnico 2)

then again, comparing to the bridge abraxas, it's 42 awg/low dc x 43 awg/medium high dc, so, different animals
the abraxas must be more compressed, and I don't know how the clarity keeps up with the gain, considering the "softer" magnet, but coming from Tim, I wouldn't expect anything less than amazing  :D

but, as you might have noticed, I've been preferring the extra clarity of the lower output models
I just abuse my boost pedals a bit more than I already did with the contemporary models

anyway, I got an alnico warpig on the way  :D
Riff Raff, Mules, Black Dog, VHII's, Cold Sweat

itamar101

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2012, 09:41:26 AM »
didn't try alnico 4 in the bridge, but I don't find the neck mule to be too soft
it has a lower dc than the cold sweat and the motor city 2nd degree black belt I had, so it's expected to be cleaner
it doesn't push the solos like the cold sweat, but it doesn't get muddy under high gain, like gibson burstbucker pros (alnico 5) or 57 classics (alnico 2)

then again, comparing to the bridge abraxas, it's 42 awg/low dc x 43 awg/medium high dc, so, different animals
the abraxas must be more compressed, and I don't know how the clarity keeps up with the gain, considering the "softer" magnet, but coming from Tim, I wouldn't expect anything less than amazing  :D

but, as you might have noticed, I've been preferring the extra clarity of the lower output models
I just abuse my boost pedals a bit more than I already did with the contemporary models

anyway, I got an alnico warpig on the way  :D

Congrats :)
Ive always had a liking for the warpig. I'm not a death metal person or anything but I LOVE it's massive, riffing tone!

Slartibartfarst42

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2012, 09:54:05 AM »
Well, I'm in a covers band that is broadly Rock based so we do a range of material. At one end of the spectrum we do 'Long Train Running', 'Bad Moon Rising', 'Many of Horror' and 'Drops of Jupiter' while at the other end it's 'Paranoid' and 'Rebel Yell' (CoB version). Most of our material lies somewhere in between those two points, though it's worth pointing out that I invariably use more gain than the original version of a song. My default dirty channel is with the gain set to 6-7 and a lot of what I do with distortion also uses an overdrive with the level maxed out and gain set to zero. The Jackson can take care of anything that is even vaguely 'Metal'. With the gain levels I like, my crossover point at the moment is 'Alright Now' as I currently use the PRS for that but the Jackson could do it just as effectively.

If, having changed the pickups, the PRS is no longer great at Metal, it's no really big deal for me. As long as it can get to things like Free, I'm pretty happy but I'd love to have a better tone for Blues based material. Following reading this thread I listened to a bit of Santana (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACdwCIld3kE) and that is such a beautiful tone that would lend itself to our softer material and my Blues noodling so well. The trouble is, I'm afraid of it being a bit too soft in the bass as, like itamar101, I also like a pickup to have great articulation, which I hear a bit more with Gary Moore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiuQ1EbrT94&playnext=1&list=PL121326F1988E0112&feature=results_video).

I suppose I'm wanting something that can blend both of those tones and I'm not sure the Abraxas would do the latter. The Holydiver is a safe option for me because I already know the pickup and I love it but I also wonder if I did that, I'd just end up with a guitar that wouldn't be drastically different from my Jackson anyway. The Bluesy feel of an AIV appeals and I'm drawn to the higher output, thinking it will be more versatile for when I use more gain but Eric's concern of 'I don't know how the clarity keeps up with the gain, considering the softer magnet' really resonates with me.
BKP owned:

Bridge - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; A-Bomb; Holydiver; Miracle Man; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

Neck - Emerald; Cold Sweat; Crawler; Holydiver; Sinner; Trilogy Suite

Telerocker

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2012, 07:35:55 PM »
didn't try alnico 4 in the bridge, but I don't find the neck mule to be too soft
it has a lower dc than the cold sweat and the motor city 2nd degree black belt I had, so it's expected to be cleaner
it doesn't push the solos like the cold sweat, but it doesn't get muddy under high gain, like gibson burstbucker pros (alnico 5) or 57 classics (alnico 2)


The Mule-neck is awesome and keeps thing tidy with a lot of gain, but the tremendous clarity is the forte of BKP's anyway.
Mules, VHII, Crawler, MM's, IT's, BG50's.

richard

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2012, 08:04:59 PM »
Out on a limb here but if you 'invariably use more gain than the original version of a song' don't discount the RYs.  I think they sit on the fence between classic rock and metal perfectly. I can get some great Moore-ish blues sounds by backing off the guitar volume a bit.
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Brow

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Re: If I wanted more of a Slash sound from my ESP Eclipse...
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2012, 08:43:59 PM »
Out on a limb here but if you 'invariably use more gain than the original version of a song' don't discount the RYs.  I think they sit on the fence between classic rock and metal perfectly. I can get some great Moore-ish blues sounds by backing off the guitar volume a bit.

Another +1 from me on this 1!

I find all BKPs to be very good on cleaning up on the volume control if you need to.

The RYs have a bit more of a modern edge to them imo, so would fit well with your heavier versions of the cover tunes you mentioned.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 01:07:50 PM by Brow »
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