manhattans not doing it for me? any advice?

[add4]

Hello all,

Last year i asked advices about a pickup change for modern jazz, and i finally decided to go for the manhattan (topic here https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=23455.0)

I was not truly happy with the manhattan in the Ibanez, but i am fairly certain it's because they're so transparent that i could hear that the ibanez was a cheap guitar (i think i could actually hear low quality wood, with a plastic quality in the sound)
Since then, i upgraded the ibanez by a real ES335 fat neck, which i love, but i decided to try the manhattan just have an idea of the sound it would give, and i have mixed feelings about it:

i would like to have your advices and ideas on what i could get to upgrade the stock classic 57, but avoid the things i don't like in the manhattan

Classic 57:
pros:
- Great medium/highs.
- it cuts through the mix really well (because of these medium/highs)
cons :
- very 'closed' sound
- not bright enough on some settings
- not super precise

Manhattans:
Pros:
- VERY open sound (sounds like an archtop ... which i love)
- nice highs
- not too boomy in the bass
- really articulate and sensitive to dynamics
- i can get that piano like sound that really sounds cool
- precision
cons :
- doesn't cut through the mix (not enough medium highs) in a band setting
- not enough output
- too 'nice' for me .. i'd prefer a little more 'badboy' sound

I'm thinking of swapping the manhattan for an unpotted mule (i don't use high gain distortion), or stormy monday.
I have one friend who has great results with the emerald in his solid body.
i would like to keep the dynamics, and open sound of the manhattan if possible.
I would like a strong emphasis in medium highs, almost nasal.

Don't get me wrong, the manhattan is a GREAT pickup, it has a lot of very nice charachteristics, and would be ideal in an arch top, used for traditional jazz, but i also want a more modern sound and something that cuts more in a band setting.

In fact, i think i'm looking for a classic 57 with more dynamics and 'openness', less boomy in the bass, a little more bright, more precision, and a little more output. Do you think i can find that ?
Thanks in advance

Arnaud

P.s. if you happen to have the model that would do it, and want to try the manhattan, trading is a possibility

[Deafcat64]

The Mississippi Queen is a great open sounding P90. It has more high mids than the Manhattan. The Mules would be an excellent choice. I haven't used the Mules much, but what I have gotten to use them was wonderful. Very open and clear with a lot going on in the mids and upper mids. Fast bass response but not compressed or overpowering.

[add4]

Ok, i've been playing with my para EQ and i now know that the frequencies that i want are not medium/highs, but medium/lows, in fact, i like a strong emphasis around 500Hz.

Maybe that can help you giving ideas.. :)

[Roboten]

The paraEQ, that is an awesome pedal, as you probably already know :)

[Telerocker]

I think unpotted Mules are a good idea. Even the potted ones (I have a set in a Saint Blues) have plenty of mojo: full, rich, complex and deep tones, yet crispy and tight enough for all kinds of rock (even when Nolly recorded some metalclips with Mules in a Blackmachine). Unpotted you are able to extract the last bit of juice from the Mules.

[bandmaster188]

you're not gonna go too far wrong with a set of mules or stormy mondays. i've got a mule in the bridge and a stormy in the neck of my 335 and i love it. the middle position has almost got a gretsch like quality going on!

[add4]

i think the right amount of output for me is given by the les paul pickups (490R/498T) do you think its would mean that the mules are not hot enough and i should go for something a bit hotter, in the morder output family maybe?

[Fourth Feline]

i think the right amount of output for me is given by the les paul pickups (490R/498T) do you think its would mean that the mules are not hot enough and i should go for something a bit hotter, in the morder output family maybe?

Yes, I was thinking that it would be best to take not one,  but two or three steps up the pickup range.  Not only to 'drive through' the heavier laminated ( i.e cheaper ) guitars, but to ensure that you have a totally contrasting pickup - from the Manhattan, and the other somewhat subtle end of the B.K.P. pickup range.  I replaced my 490/498s with Mules and am very happy, but I would want a classic 'open' P.A.F sound anyway.  As B.K.P. have all given me varying degrees of detail and power, I would indeed say think of Emeralds, Abraxas, Riff Raffs e.t.c  - depending on the basic tonal character you want to 'launch' from.  Unfortunately, I cannot give any insight to the pickups I have just mentioned, as I have never owned them ( If only I could !  :o ).

Dont worry about losing articulation with the higher output B.K.P. - as even my Warpigs give me a ( relatively ) clear and responsive sound.

[HTH AMPS]

Stormy Monday neck definitely.

[Fourth Feline]

The Mississippi Queen is a great open sounding P90. It has more high mids than the Manhattan. The Mules would be an excellent choice. I haven't used the Mules much, but what I have gotten to use them was wonderful. Very open and clear with a lot going on in the mids and upper mids. Fast bass response but not compressed or overpowering.

Nudged by this thread to do some revision, I re-installed my M.Qs into my (Tanglewood) 335 copy today - and fitted some nice clear GeorgeL's strings. I had forgotten just how lovely the M.Qs sound in that guitar, better than in any other in fact.  The guitar also helping to remind me what lovely pickups the Mississipi Queens are.  :)

[Deafcat64]

Fourth Feline, I agree! I have a MQ neck and Abraxas bridge in my SG Standard. The MQ is outstanding. I am partial to A4 pickups, but there is undeniable magic in the MQ set.

[add4]

Thanks for your advices,

I'm not really into the MQ, because i'd like the 'weight' and thickness of a humbucker.
I'm thinking about mules or something a bit hotter like a VHII, abraxas or black dog.
I imagine the VHII are like hotter mules, balanced and 'classical' sounding. which would be the safest choice
i like the idea of the boosted mids of the black dog, but i'm not sure it's the mids i want, the clips make it sound like the enhanced mids are higher than the mids i am looking for.
I'm curious about the abraxas. the words 'vocal tone' really attracts me.
the emerald description make it sound too bright for my taste..
it's really hard to decide without trying ... :)

I'd love to see a complete analysis of the frequency response of each pickup...

[Telerocker]

The vocal tone you want = Mules. The Abraxas would already on the hot side for what you're looking for, however it cleans up and splits nice. The Abraxas is a hotter version of the Mule (bot AIV-magnets).
I don't think you want VHII's, they quite rocky and punchy and although they cleanup great. To me Mules sound more open, fat, full and deep and crispy at the same time. From pristine cleans, you can go from jazz, blues, bluesrock, classic rock, hardrock and, with the right amp, even metal. Based on your first description I would go for these versatile pickups, unless you're looking for more midgrowl like the middy-middy Black Dog provides.

My 2 cents

[Deafcat64]

Telerocker is absolutely correct about the Abraxas being a hotter Mule. They have a really even response across the mids and treble. The highs are sweet and rounded, but no spikes or peaks. The Abraxas sounds "vocal" especially with a slide. It really sounds like a human voice if you want it to.

[HTH AMPS]

The Abraxas (bridge) is my favourite BKP humbucker - should pair well with the Stormy Monday neck.  If you want something a little creamier, then the Mule neck (or even the Crawler neck, as it's just a margainly hotter Mule) would work well.