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Author Topic: New amp advice  (Read 23385 times)

Dmoney

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2012, 02:28:13 PM »
Each valve contains 2 triodes which can be used as gain stages but they can indeed do things other than being stages that add to distortion, although they may still contribute to the overall character of the circuit.

Some valves will be shared by the clean & overdrive channels in some amps. For example, in the SLO V1 contains the main shared input gain stage for both channels and the second stage for the clean channel, while both halves of V2 are only in the overdrive channel. V3, V4 and V5 are shared by both channels.

That explains why if you ever look at an amplifier schematic, you might see V1A and V1B labeling two halves of the same valve.

In the Avenger, half of one of the preamp valves isn't used for anything. A loopless SLO doesn't include V4, which is a recovery stage for the loop and a cathode follower to drive the tone stack. In the Avenger and loopless SLO, V3 is used as a gain stage, and tone stack driver.

Now to further complicate things, in the SLO, the channel switching method allows bleed through from the clean channel to the overdrive channel, so technically speaker the half of V1 in the clean channel can be heard in the Overdrive channel. It's more apparent if you use the clean channel in crunch mode and crank the gain.

There a LOTS of arguments to be had over what makes that circuit sound awesome and I'm glossing over a lot of it, but essentially, one 12AX7 can be two gain stages and can be shared between channels in a multichannel amp. sometimes manufactures make it clear (VHT springs to mind), and sometimes they don't (Peavey 5150's spring to mind)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 02:31:09 PM by Dmoney »

itamar101

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2012, 02:38:25 PM »
Dunno much about the internals and what constitutes a gain stage, but the SLO def has 5 preamp valves. Whether one of those does something other than being a gain stage, I have no idea

Fx loop.

dave_mc

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2012, 03:43:00 PM »
SLO lead is a 4 gain stage circuit really. Just sayin'

yeah looks like 4 to me (assuming 2 of the gain stages are for the clean channel, and i think they are, but my electronics knowledge is pretty shaky at best :lol: )

BigB

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2012, 05:02:40 PM »
SLO lead is a 4 gain stage circuit really. Just sayin'
Uh ?  Always thought it had five - but you certainly know better than me ;)

Or not, in fact : http://www.ampbooks.com/home/classic-circuits/soldano-slo-preamp-5/

Seems like it's really 5 gain stages ;)

Dunno much about the internals and what constitutes a gain stage, but the SLO def has 5 preamp valves. Whether one of those does something other than being a gain stage, I have no idea

The canonical guitar preamp valve - the 12AX7 (and it's sisters 12A-whatever-7) - is a double triode, IOW two valves in one. Each triode can be used a effective gain stage or for impedance adaptation (buffering), in both cases for the preamp's gain by itself but also as reverb / fx loop drivers and recovery stages. They are also used as phase inverser (the very last stage before the power valves), requiring one or two (most often two) triodes.

IOW: with 5 12AX7 you have a potential for 10 gain stages, but some of the triodes will not be used that way. wrt/ slo, you already have 2 triodes for the PI and 2 used as cathode followers (impedance adapters) in the last two gain stages. This leaves 6 triodes, 5 of which are the 5 gain stages for the lead channel. I assume the remaining one is used by the clean channel...
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Dmoney

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2012, 05:36:52 PM »
between that stage and the stage before it, you're not getting much in terms of gain or distortion. The SLO loop is a very poor one. You can argue that the cathode follower has an impact on the tone even though it doesn't increase gain and yes, it is driven by a 'gain stage'... it's the recovery stage for the loop and a cathode follower to drive the tone stack.

If you look at the output of the 4th stage cathode follower, there is a drop in signal level before the fx send jack. That level is lifted again at the recovery stage and the full output of the 5th stages cathode follower is passed to the tone stack. I'm distinguishing the cathode followers because they are 1 triode (half of a valve) but they have unity gain.

Between the FX loop send stage and the return stage V3B and V4A, there isn't much going on to increase overall gain of the preamp, although one of those stages is a gain stage.

You can ditch V4 like in my SLO and you get....

Shared input stage > gain stage > cold bias clipping stage > gain stage > Cathode follower > Tone Stack > MV > Phase Inverter.

I'd argue that 99% of the SLO's character comes from the first 4 stages plus a cathode follower to drive the tone stack.

I'm sure I've read that Mike Soldano prefers the amp without the loop. That setup is basically the Avenger, and its definitely what's in my SLO, which has no socket for V4.

 
EDIT: I just read that site again, seen it in the past. There is a 34dB reduction in signal level before the FX send, and the 5th 'gain stage' gives a 33dB increase. So the 5th gain stage's contribution is somewhat questionable.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 05:45:55 PM by Dmoney »

tekbow

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2012, 06:16:47 PM »
Mike does indeed prefer the amp without the loop, and, if requested they will build an SLO without it, not sure about leaving out a socket or valve though, pretty sure he doesn't do that.

The avenger is basically the SLO overdrive circuit, although it's missing components like the Deyoung transformers which most devotees say is a major part of the sound.

Head over to the Soldano Forums, very helpful and enthusiastic guys, one of which is a guy called James L Burke (JLB) who is our direct line to Mike Soldano. He's a dealer and has an exclusive amp that you can't buy anywhere else.

if you do head over, do not mention clones. That will initiate an immediate and hostile reaction... They are great guys, but very protective of their (our) chosen brand.

My only quibble period with soldano's is the line level loop. I don't like digital by and large and it's nigh on impossible to find a line level analog delay in stomp box form.. The I relented and bought a Nova repeater which is admittedly excellent, but i have "teleporter" anxiety about it..
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 06:22:37 PM by tekbow »

Dmoney

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2012, 07:52:29 PM »
My slo100 is a real slo100, so he left out the socket and valve in mine at least. It has a plastic push in blank where the hole in the chassis is.

As for clones I'd say they can be equally as good if not better in fact, if the person building it puts some effort in. The SLO is a beast but it isn't perfect. And as for the Deyoungs, if someone REALLY wanted to clone a Deyoung then they could and I'm fairly sure they have.

I love mine for various reasons, but I was also let down by a few things when I got it. Still, I'm over the negatives. And it does sound awesome.

There is a mod to lower the loop level in an SLO, as well as a factory schem for moving the FX loop after the master volume apparently. I really looked into either, since my amp has no loop! haha

tekbow

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2012, 08:09:47 PM »
ahhh.. i stand corrected, i thought you'd built a clone, ditto the correction with the socket left out. Sounds like it was done at the workshop then, did you order it like that?

what where the negatives for you? and what parts of the design don't you like? other than the line level i can't complain about anything, and it's an HR50+, so when i finally get my hands on an SLO it's only going to get better. at least in my head

The Deyoungs are custom built for Mike, they don't make them for anyone else, i think most people use mercury or Onetics (he's using Onetics for everything that isn't an SLO now, mine is prob a mercury) in clones. I haven't heard of any deyoung clones yet.


Dmoney

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2012, 08:56:52 PM »
I did have a clone. Long story!


I did order it like that, yeah. It has no loop and no line out.

Negatives? Mostly minor things. I don't like that the mains earth is just soldered to the main star ground for the amp. That isn't considered good practice in the UK... I'm not even sure if its considered legal. I also prefer power switch and standby switching to be done with DPDT switches, and the Stanby switch to be the first thing after the PT secondary output and before the rectifier. I also modded mine to have Elevated AC heaters for the valves. It prolongs life in cathode followers, but really i did it so valves I put in V1 that I own which are sensitive to heater hum wouldn't complain! My biggest issue with mine, is that when it arrived the inside of the chassis was coated in a fine metallic dust. The explanation was that it was down to the IEC socket hole being filed out of the chassis. I cleaned it out myself, but I really disliked that and amp of this caliber could end up with metallic dust floating about inside it! Sort of lets down the build quality.

The IGPW transformers on the tubetown.de site are really nice. I have a feeling the OT is a clone. The deyounds at some point IIRC were available as upgrades for the Hot Rod 50/100. I also have a feeling the guy who makes them may have got hold of an SLO and actually cut the OT in half, and then just built himself a new one. Pretty extreme if he did! Having held an IGPW transformer in my hand and compared it to the Deyoung I can say the laminates and the size and the build on the outside are incredibly similar. Though I'd have to cut them both in half to compare them internally! haha.

tekbow

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2012, 09:09:29 PM »
So mostly personal preference design things then? fair enough, not so much the sound.

Where did you get it from?? soldano direct? am honestly suprised it went out like that, the guy stands by his stuff big time, SLO or not. Was it Mike or Bill that let you know about the filing?

I might actually have to check my OT out then, it was from the time when that was still offered, i think he decided he wanted to make it an SLO exclusive thing. Wonder what the difference is between a Deyoung optioned HR and an SLO as the HR+ is supposed to basically be the SLO overdrive circuit without the Deyoungs.

Dmoney

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2012, 11:02:20 PM »
Yeah nothing so much to do with the sound. I love the sound!

It was via sounds great a while back. That in itself was a big deal, but everyone involved helped me through that process. I tried to avoid them but was told I couldn't. So i had to swallow some pride. It was Bill that suggested the cause of the dust.

Have a look. My avenger has Merc Mags OT and i think it has an Onetics PT. The HR+ has some slightly different component values in it, but not much. They are very similar.

tekbow

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2012, 12:46:06 AM »
Sounds great are my main reason for not owning an SLO.. i really don't want to have to deal with them.. mainly because when i've tried to in the past i received zero info or help.

I got my HR for a great price on ebay located in the uk. SLO's are sparser on the ground and when they do come up in the uk or europe, not much cheaper than buying new.

tekbow

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #72 on: August 29, 2012, 11:59:02 AM »
Checked it out, is a Mercury OT and PT, will have to ask what they felt the improvement was that the Onetics transformer added.

kellar

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #73 on: August 29, 2012, 04:13:21 PM »
Speaking of overdrives/boost and all that stuff, I have been very impressed with Egnater reviews and what I have played so far. Thought these looked interesting:

http://www.egnateramps.com/EgnaterProducts/Pedals/EgnaterPedals.html
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Copperhead

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Re: New amp advice
« Reply #74 on: August 29, 2012, 04:26:52 PM »
Dunno much about the internals and what constitutes a gain stage, but the SLO def has 5 preamp valves. Whether one of those does something other than being a gain stage, I have no idea

Fx loop.

V1 = 2 gain stages
V2 = 1 GS / 1 CF
V3 = 1GS / 1 CF
V4 = FX Loop
V5 = Phase Inverter
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